Slow backwards boring football until we're losing

[Gazza M]

Why can't being a good counter attacking side be a trademark of a good team. We even sing it in the "Vichai had a dream" song. Sick of trying to reinvent the wheel under Puel and now Brendan. 

[Guest454545]

3 minutes ago, Gazza M said:

Why can't being a good counter attacking side be a trademark of a good team. We even sing it in the "Vichai had a dream" song. Sick of trying to reinvent the wheel under Puel and now Brendan. 

Liverpool under Rodgers in that title challenge season under Rodgers were the best counterattacking side in the league. I believe a good number of Celtic's goals were scored from Celtic defending corners and hitting on the break through Scott Sinclair. It's definitely something he knows how to do, but it's hard to counterattack when the other team sit deep and don't want the ball

[Sunbury Fox]

26 minutes ago, Guest454545 said:

You have Vardy, Madison and Tielemans. Barnes flatters to deceive, Iheanacho is patchy and Daka is yet to hit his stride. I can't think of any others. 

That is a totally ridiculous comment about Barnes. He was one of the best left sided attackers in the PL last season and was definitely on target for 10 goals and 10 assists until his serious injury.  He's struggled since his return from injury, which is not surprising as it was a bad one, but he pretty much wrecked Arsenal's new right back after coming on at HT last week. So hopefully he'll now start playing to his potential more regularly again. 

Edited 6 November 2021 by Sunbury Fox

[Matt]

18 minutes ago, Guest454545 said:

Fair point, but they also have Firmino, Jota, Mane, Keira, and possibly the current best player in the world, Salah, while having one of the best defenders in the world at the back. And it took them 5 years to get to that stage. 

That’s fair enough and likewise good points, I’m not really disputing how long it’s taking us to get to a stage I think it’s fair to say we’re at a stage, I’m just sick of our poor, negative, dreary style that is far from enjoyable or exciting to watch where we’ve been found out, have been for a long time now.

[Spudulike]

 

[Guest454545]

7 minutes ago, Sunbury Fox said:

That is a totally ridiculous comment about Barnes. He was one of the best left sided attackers in the PL last season and was definitely on target for 10 goals and 10 assists until his serious injury.  He's struggled since his return from injury, which is not surprising as it was a bad one, but he pretty much wrecked Arsenal's new right back after coming on at HT last week. So hopefully he'll now start playing to his potential more regularly again. 

With all due respect, if he's not playing up to his potential, regardless of the cause, then that is the very definition of "flatters to deceive". I didn't say he was crap. But right now, even if he has a legitimate excuse, he is promising a lot more than he is delivering

[majaco]

Barnes needs minutes.  He'll be delivering again soon.

 

Options are limited at times because our squad is a little unbalanced.  It would lookore.balanced if we had another winger instead of Benkovic and another DM who Rodgers trusted. And Justin and Fofana available.  Had we another winger, we could have started more games with two wide men and Barnes could have been introduced from the bench.

 

Last Saturday, Rodgers had to change formation in bringing on Barnes and Lookman.  

 

Barnes was on the opposite side of the pitch to where I was sitting bit he was causing some problems .  This was confirmed on the highlights.  He scored with a great strike against Brighton.  Hardly flattering to deceive.

[Guest454545]

28 minutes ago, majaco said:

Barnes needs minutes.  He'll be delivering again soon.

 

Options are limited at times because our squad is a little unbalanced.  It would lookore.balanced if we had another winger instead of Benkovic and another DM who Rodgers trusted. And Justin and Fofana available.  Had we another winger, we could have started more games with two wide men and Barnes could have been introduced from the bench.

 

Last Saturday, Rodgers had to change formation in bringing on Barnes and Lookman.  

 

Barnes was on the opposite side of the pitch to where I was sitting bit he was causing some problems .  This was confirmed on the highlights.  He scored with a great strike against Brighton.  Hardly flattering to deceive.

He has no goals and 1 assist in 591 minutes of league football though. Perez has the same amount of key passes (7) in 25% of Barnes' minutes. You don't think that's flattering to deceive? 

[Dahnsouff]

1 hour ago, Gazza M said:

Why can't being a good counter attacking side be a trademark of a good team. We even sing it in the "Vichai had a dream" song. Sick of trying to reinvent the wheel under Puel and now Brendan. 

Because sitting deep is way too common for counter attack to be viable strategy on its own. You have to have ways to draw out teams from their deep block, and then you can break/play with pace.

 

it’s quite simple, we are just currently a bit cack at the ‘break/play with pace’ bit

[Flappit]

9 hours ago, Swalshed said:

Did anyone also see Soyuncu dribble the ball totally unopposed to within about 3 yards of Lookman before passing it to him, giving  Lookman absolutely nowhere to go? 

 

Kind of suggests that Lookman should have been making a run elsewhere to make space for a pass and draw the defender away, really... 

[Bluefoxtim]

The people who moan about the sideways passing are the same people who then moan when we lump it up and just give away possession.

[Corky]

1 hour ago, Gazza M said:

Why can't being a good counter attacking side be a trademark of a good team. We even sing it in the "Vichai had a dream" song. Sick of trying to reinvent the wheel under Puel and now Brendan. 

We are still a good counter attacking side but if the opposition sit deep you can't play on the break. 

 

People need to move on from the title winning team and style.

[Flappit]

7 minutes ago, Corky said:

We are still a good counter attacking side but if the opposition sit deep you can't play on the break. 

 

People need to move on from the title winning team and style.

No premiership opposition sits deep for 90 minutes. When they do attack and lose the ball, we can hurt them with quick transition. What happens is that Soyuncu (usually) takes his time, passes to the fullback, who thinks about things for a moment, then checks back to give it to Soyuncu again, then Evans, then the other fullback. By this time, the opposition have rebuilt the bus and parked it again. That is where the frustration comes from, the constant caution when speed and aggression would often reap reward. 

[Mike Oxlong]

We shouldn’t fear giving away possession otherwise we will never take risks but we are not good enough out of possession which leads to the current risk averse approach with the ball 

[deep blue]

7 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

We shouldn’t fear giving away possession otherwise we will never take risks but we are not good enough out of possession which leads to the current risk averse approach with the ball 

That's a good point re out of possession.  When opposition have the ball we yield time and space to them.  We seem to have lost the desire to compete for the ball and to effectively harry them when they have the ball.

[coolhandfox]

2 hours ago, Gazza M said:

Why can't being a good counter attacking side be a trademark of a good team. We even sing it in the "Vichai had a dream" song. Sick of trying to reinvent the wheel under Puel and now Brendan. 

According to the number of goals scored on the counter, the best counter-attacking team over the last two seasons is Liverpool.

 

We are joint 2nd on the list for goals scored on the counter during the same period.

 

It's a bit of a myth that we don't set up to counter-attack 

 

14 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

We shouldn’t fear giving away possession otherwise we will never take risks but we are not good enough out of possession which leads to the current risk averse approach with the ball 

We are driven by the fear of coinciding goals, we have coincided far to many.

 

Thats what has made us more risk averse in my view, we are playing this why to try and be harder to beat.

 

BR talked about a reset at the last international break, lose ratio before the break was 40%, win ratio 29% (all comps), after the break lose ratio has dropped 17%, win ratio 50% (all comps)

 

Not pretty at the moment but it is improving results. 

Edited 6 November 2021 by coolhandfox

[iancognito]

Touched on this in another couple of threads, the first thing Rodgers did when he came in was change Puel's passing without purpose that gave us 70% possession but zero shots on target. Within a couple of weeks of him being in the players had changed their mindset and were always looking forwards, sometimes before even receiving the ball for the next pass. We went from tippy tappy nonsense without penetration to fast incisive passes. Some of the football was an absolute joy and the following two seasons started like that too. The negative stuff comes from our creative players not showing for the ball and our attackers not moving.

 

We'll keep shuffling it from Amartey to Evans to Cags, back to Evans back to Schmeichel to Amartey, to Evans to Cags if our midfield & forwards don't offer something different. And if they're not moving then they should be subbed. We've got our deepest squad with the best quality. Rodgers can see they're not performing and should be benching anyone who doesn't start with the right tempo or attitude. It's no good him coming out after each game and saying we didn't start right or we didn't have the right tempo, that's down to him and his staff in 2 ways - they're either not sending them out with the right mentality and attitude or they're not instilling it enough on the training pitch. There are two players - at least - to cover every position and there are no excuses for not performing.

 

The facilities are there, Rodgers is a top coach, they're all paid well - anyone not performing should be dropped. It worked for Barnes and it should work for others too, even the big names. Enough of the excuses, he needs to earn his money and get these players back on their game.

[volpeazzurro]

43 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Because sitting deep is way too common for counter attack to be viable strategy on its own. You have to have ways to draw out teams from their deep block, and then you can break/play with pace.

 

it’s quite simple, we are just currently a bit cack at the ‘break/play with pace’ bit

Whilst that may well be true, you're not going to 'draw' the opposition out playing 352 with supposed wing backs that are merely full backs trying to do a job and not bona-fide wing backs (but you can blame them and use them as an excuse). Together with the 3 centre halves these fullbacks merely serve to clog up a midfield area playing a succession of meaningless short passes that eventually break down. There are in the squad, midfielders and wingers available to make a better fist of it in a different formation but Rodgers, it would appear, would prefer to strive for control and possession above all. It's tedious stuff, lacks ambition and is greatly harming our on field performances and subsequently results. It's nothing new, this stubbornness has been going on for months and yet some people will happily defend it just because we're without Fofana and JJ who's been out of the equation for nearly year anyway. 

[sylofox]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

That’s fair enough and likewise good points, I’m not really disputing how long it’s taking us to get to a stage I think it’s fair to say we’re at a stage, I’m just sick of our poor, negative, dreary style that is far from enjoyable or exciting to watch where we’ve been found out, have been for a long time now.

Its getting harder to watch this dreary shite. It's no wonder players are out of form, imagine being sent out to play that shite.

 

If Brendan dont change it soon he won't have the backing of the fans. Sadly I dont think the players will be far behind either.

 

It's ok blaming players when they do something wrong. But following instructions and playing this game is no wonder they are not interested, I'm not.

[Edingleyfox]

1 hour ago, volpeazzurro said:

Whilst that may well be true, you're not going to 'draw' the opposition out playing 352 with supposed wing backs that are merely full backs trying to do a job and not bona-fide wing backs (but you can blame them and use them as an excuse). Together with the 3 centre halves these fullbacks merely serve to clog up a midfield area playing a succession of meaningless short passes that eventually break down. There are in the squad, midfielders and wingers available to make a better fist of it in a different formation but Rodgers, it would appear, would prefer to strive for control and possession above all. It's tedious stuff, lacks ambition and is greatly harming our on field performances and subsequently results. It's nothing new, this stubbornness has been going on for months and yet some people will happily defend it just because we're without Fofana and JJ who's been out of the equation for nearly year anyway. 

I think 3 5 2 can work with the right people but IMO Castagne and Ricardo are the only 2 capable of playing wing back and perhaps JJ when fully fit. When we use makeshift replacements which are better as full backs they are constantly caught out of position as happened against Arsenal and Spartak for the goals. Similarly the 3 at the back need to be comfortable with distribution and only Evans seems capable of spraying the ball around at present. The other issue with the system is that Barnes, Lookman etc can't get in the starting line up to provide the extra pace. The main issue I think is the total lack of confidence in the defence particularly conceding headed goals and I don't know what you can do about that but hopefully Wilf coming back might help.

Edited 6 November 2021 by Edingleyfox

[Clever Fox]

To properly play the system Brendan wants you need players not only with ability on the Ball but also Pace. Which is something we still lack in some areas;

 

The other problem is there's too much distance between the defense and the midfield when we play with just Wilf and Youri in midfield. This is why so many passes are played between the Fbs and CBs waiting for someone to become available in a forward position.

We need Soumare to get up to speed quicker than he is ( He needs to toughen up and use both his skill and pace more but I'm sure it will come in time. )  but when he does with him on the left and Wilf on the right and Youri center the midfield will be more Balanced.

This will mean that Evans and Soyuncu should be able to play out quicker and push forward in support.

Youri and Maddison should be taking it forward from here and creating the attack. threat

Though for me Maddisons lack of pace is a problem despite how good he is on the Ball and I've said it before but I think we may have outgrown him. Though his skill on the ball can be a delight to watch at times.

[Dahnsouff]

2 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

Whilst that may well be true, you're not going to 'draw' the opposition out playing 352 with supposed wing backs that are merely full backs trying to do a job and not bona-fide wing backs (but you can blame them and use them as an excuse). Together with the 3 centre halves these fullbacks merely serve to clog up a midfield area playing a succession of meaningless short passes that eventually break down. There are in the squad, midfielders and wingers available to make a better fist of it in a different formation but Rodgers, it would appear, would prefer to strive for control and possession above all. It's tedious stuff, lacks ambition and is greatly harming our on field performances and subsequently results. It's nothing new, this stubbornness has been going on for months and yet some people will happily defend it just because we're without Fofana and JJ who's been out of the equation for nearly year anyway. 

I get it, 3-5-2 isn’t a formation I like to see, at least not without consistent  wing backs, but out of interest, what formation do you think could work with the currently available personnel?

 

Still feel the loss of Fofana, along with Jonny’s questionable availability and Cags early season insanity has caused a major hit on confidence. Something we are struggling to regain. Time to earn the big bucks Brendan (I was pleased to see him moan in the press about underperforming players)

[volpeazzurro]

32 minutes ago, Edingleyfox said:

I think 3 5 2 can work with the right people but IMO Castagne and Ricardo are the only 2 capable of playing wing back and perhaps JJ when fully fit. When we use makeshift replacements which are better as full backs they are constantly caught out of position as happened against Arsenal and Spartak for the goals. Similarly the 3 at the back need to be comfortable with distribution and only Evans seems capable of spraying the ball around at present. The other issue with the system is that Barnes, Lookman etc can't get in the starting line up to provide the extra pace. The main issue I think is the total lack of confidence in the defence particularly conceding headed goals and I don't know what you can do about that but hopefully Wilf coming back might help.

Firstly, I do agree that the 352 system can work,  but disagree that Ricardo or Castagne are capable wing backs, likewise Thomas at this point in his career. Neither for me is Ricardo even a half decent winger. That doesn't mean I don't rate them, I think they are both very talented fullbacks who can also attack devastatingly well coming from deep, particularly a fit Ricardo, but do so when having the luxury of someone in front of them to overlap. 

 

The lack of confidence in defence is hardly going to be helped when two of your best defenders are being asked to perform other duties and therefore leave you even more exposed. If Evans and Soyuncu are currently our best centre half options in a potential 4 at the back, then perm any two from Ricardo, Castagne and Thomas for the fullback roles and I still think you have a fairly solid back 4 who are all equally confident playing in their best and familiar roles.

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

If sides sit back in a low block, you have to play through them either by passing or more directly. Passing it backwards and sideways for passages of play on end isn't necessarily going to draw them out recklessly. They'll just wait till a stray pass or mistake as we've seen. 

[volpeazzurro]

6 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

I get it, 3-5-2 isn’t a formation I like to see, at least not without consistent  wing backs, but out of interest, what formation do you think could work with the currently available personnel?

 

Still feel the loss of Fofana, along with Jonny’s questionable availability and Cags early season insanity has caused a major hit on confidence. Something we are struggling to regain. Time to earn the big bucks Brendan (I was pleased to see him moan in the press about underperforming players)

Without JJ and Fofana I still feel we have ample talent for a 433, 442, 4321 or, as Rodgers seems to admire Barcelona, even a formation they used at times 4213 (all very fluid and not overly micro-managed. For the latter 4213 I'd suggest if all others fit:

 

Schmeichel.

 

Ricardo, Evans, Soyuncu, Thomas.

 

Soumare, Ndidi. 

 

Tielemans 

 

Iheanacho, Vardy,  Barnes. 

 

(Tbh, any 3 of Vardy, Iheanacho, Daka, Barnes or Lookman could be at the front depending upon opposition defenders).

 

I think you have a solid back 4 of players all comfortable in their positions. Ndidi and Soumare to protect them. Tielemans relieved of excessive defensive duties to hopefully have more influence on the game and a front 3 enough to frighten anyone that are prepared to run at players.