World Cup General Chit Chat

[Paninistickers]

12 minutes ago, MattFox said:

They’ve had pretty good coverage for a few tournaments now since they binned off Chiles.

 

Always find them less smug than the BBC can be at times

 

Only thing is they persist with Matterface and Dixon who are truly shit when they have much better options on their books

Totally agree re matterface and Dixon. 

Drury and Tyldesley (tho past his best) miles ahead. 

 

 

[HybridFox]

[Fox92]

Clive Tyldeley has just posted on twitter something about being at home.

 

I can't understand the love in he gets. He rambles on about nothing half the time.

 

 

 

[davieG]

That's the last game at Stadium 974 at this World Cup in Qatar.

The arena, which is made up of shipping containers, will now be completely dismantled and put back together when needed.

[HybridFox]

Feels a very meh day today without any games 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Lee Dixon just sounds totally depressed. He's atrocious. 

[grobyfox1990]

57 minutes ago, TK95 said:

Feels a very meh day today without any games 

Stockport v Charlton on itv4…

[SouthStandUpperTier]

Been dipping in and out of the World Cup Classic Matches channel on the ITVX app. It's good stuff. Great to hear the likes of Brian Moore, Peter Brackley and others. Was watching the '82 semi between France and West Germany the other day. Incredible game. Still can't believe Schumacher got away with that assault on Batiston.

[davieG]

 

Quote

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63873325

 

World Cup 2022: Vittorio Pozzo's legacy and a record that might finally be under threat
By Chris Evans
BBC Sport

When Didier Deschamps leads his France side out to face England in their World Cup quarter-final on Saturday, he will be hoping to take a further big step towards becoming only the second manager to retain the trophy.

Just two nations have managed to win back-to-back men's World Cups, Italy in 1934 and 1938 and Brazil in 1958 and 1962, but with the Selecao job changing hands between successes, former Azzurri coach Vittorio Pozzo stands alone.

Nicknamed Il Vecchio Maestro (the Old Master) in coaching circles, Pozzo was considered a visionary of the time and is credited as one of the minds behind the Metodo formation, the earliest example of the 4-3-3 we recognise today.

Yet far from being revered as the only manager to win the men's World Cup twice, Pozzo remains relatively little known. And there is a reason for that.

"It's deliberate that few people know who he is," says historian Dr Alex Alexandrou, the chair and co-founder of the Football and War network.

"If you think about post-1945 Italy, and how Fifa and the Italian Football Federation project and promote themselves, the one thing they didn't want to do was give credence to Pozzo and what happened during the 1930s, because there is a significant link with the far right and fascism."

Despite Pozzo first taking charge of the national team for the 1912 Olympics - before fascists rose to power in Italy - and never being a member of the National Fascist Party, his story is inextricably linked to the far right movement that culminated in Benito Mussolini's dictatorship.

The four stars proudly emblazoned on Italy's national team shirt to symbolise their quartet of World Cup wins acknowledge the victories of 1934 and 1938, but there's still some unease around them.

"There's this slight sort of smell, if you like, after the war, and Pozzo isn't as famous or exulted as he might be because he won his trophies under a fascist regime," explains Italian football expert John Foot in new book How to Win the World Cup.

"He wasn't forced to do that; he participated in that. The players gave the fascist salute and there was a lot of rhetoric around them, so it's a problem in terms of Italy. Do those World Cups even count?"

Sport historian Prof Jean Williams adds: "A lot of people describe Pozzo as capitulating to the regime - he goes along with it rather than standing up to it.

"Unless you were going to leave the country, it was very difficult to avoid, in the same way that a lot of young men would have become part of the Hitler Youth [in Nazi Germany] because it was essentially their version of the boy scouts."

Dr Alexandrou agrees: "I don't think Pozzo had much time for politics per se or even for the fascists, but he loved his football and he had to survive in that regime. He did what he felt he had to do in order to do the job he wanted to do, which was to manage."

Vittorio Pozzo
Pozzo, pictured in October 1938. In the women's game, Jill Ellis matched his achievement of two successive World Cup wins with USA (in 2015 and 2019)
Mussolini's fascist government had quickly identified the value of a strong association with football after seizing power in 1922 and its involvement with Italy's national game deepened as the country became a dictatorship.

Money was poured into the sport in search of the best possible chance of success on the international stage, with Serie A reorganised in 1929 to create stronger competition and help develop players that could compete at the top level.

Militia general Giorgio Vaccaro was installed as the head of the Italian Football Federation. But when it came to the national team, Pozzo was the poster boy.

Italy were World Cup hosts in 1934. The country's rulers considered it crucial that they win, thereby reaffirming fascism's strong nationalist values and conveying the image of a modern and assertive nation to the rest of the globe.

Although a combination of Pozzo's tactical approach and a partisan home crowd would help Italy's chances of glory, there were also rumours of foul play - with Mussolini allegedly meeting with tournament referees the night before key matches.

Although no corruption was ever proved, opponents complained of officials' leniency towards the Azzurri's physicality. Swiss referee Rene Mercet was even suspended by his own football association following claims he made several controversial decisions as Italy squeezed past Spain in a heated quarter-final replay.

Despite the accusations, there was no doubt Pozzo's tactical ingenuity had an impact. The Italians conceded only three times in five matches - particularly impressive given the comparatively free-scoring nature of the time. The coach's preference for playing with four defenders and a holding midfielder gave them a stronger footing in the face of the popular 2-3-5 formation.

"We start to see the beginnings of the catenaccio defence where the centre-half is a kind of stopper," Williams explains.

"Under Pozzo, instead of a centre-half being the one that spread the ball around, the midfield became more important, with a holding midfielder and an attacking midfielder, or inside rights and lefts, as they were called in those days."

Pozzo can in another sense be seen as a forefather to the modern international manager in his insistence on having full control over team selection. Previously many national sides were chosen by appointed committees, but Pozzo said the best chance of success was for the coach to take responsibility - something Sir Alf Ramsey also did upon becoming England manager in 1963.

This meant Pozzo could call upon the oriundi, a term used to describe foreign-born people with Italian descent, to bolster his side's ranks. Within that diaspora, he called up Luis Monti, who had played in the 1930 World Cup final for Argentina, and Raimundo Orsi, another former Argentina player who would score for Italy in the 1934 final, a 2-1 victory over Czechoslovakia.

This wasn't universally popular among the fascist regime, but the prospect of forming a stronger national side tipped the debate in Pozzo's favour. His new-look side were well organised, treated matches like battles and would stop at nothing to win. Training camps were punctuated with strong nationalistic messages and the squad treated almost as if they were soldiers, with exercises such as marches through the woods commonplace.

Pozzo continued to develop his approach in the ensuing four years, leading Italy to victory at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin and becoming the first manager to win a World Cup on foreign soil in France in 1938.

Pozzo celebrated in a 1934 cartoon
Pozzo and Italy's first World Cup victory is celebrated in a 1934 cartoon
Facing a vocal anti-Italian crowd in their opening match of the tournament against Norway in Marseille, Pozzo and his players held a fascist salute as an act of defiance and refused to lower their arms until the jeers died down. Upon lowering their salute the noise began again, with Pozzo barking the order to raise their arms once more.

As Italy progressed through the tournament, a quarter-final meeting with hosts France only further dialled up the political tension and a kit clash saw the Azzurri, changed from their usual blue shirts, opting to play in all black rather than their second colour, white, on orders from above.

By now Italy carried a little more creativity to go with their clout, with Giuseppe Meazza growing in influence in the centre of Pozzo's carefully constructed midfield. The captain was instrumental as the holders dispatched France 3-1; he then scored the winner from the penalty spot against Brazil in the semi-final; and in the final he teed up Luigi Colaussi and Silvio Piola as the forwards scored twice each in a 4-2 win over Hungary.

The significance of a second consecutive World Cup victory wasn't lost on the fascist government back home, with a myth emerging that Mussolini sent a telegram to the team on the eve of the final saying "win or die". It's a detail that has never been confirmed.

But it would prove to be the end of Pozzo's World Cup story. The outbreak of the World War Two meant the tournament didn't return until 1950, by which time he had been relieved of his duties and banned from Italian football because of his association with the now-overthrown fascist government.

Pozzo went on to become a well-respected journalist covering the Italian national team for daily newspaper La Stampa, but he would never return to the dugout. He died in December 1968, aged 82.

"Pozzo was obviously a very good leader and very good at mobilising and motivating his teams," Foot continues in How to Win the World Cup.

"He saw football as war and used national rhetoric around international tournaments. It was like war had been transported onto the pitch."

Chris Evans is the author of How to Win the World Cup: Secrets and Insights from International Football's Top Managers

 

Fascism, 433, Mussolini all involved? 

[Nalis]

Epic semi finals at world cups in the 21st century have been few and far between. Only Germany v Italy 2006 and of course Germany v Brazil 2014 spring to mind. 

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

 

 

 

[when_you're_smiling]

Shouldn’t really be ‘chit chat’ but I don’t know where else to post it.

 

Grant Whal, a well known American journalist has died at the Netherlands v Argentina game. He’d been detained earlier in the tournament for wearing a rainbow t-shirt to a game and had written several pieces criticising the Qatari regimes including one yesterday leading on the ‘death is part of life’ quotes the organisers had said about migrant worker deaths. His brother announced the news by posting a video on Instagram alleging foul play.

 

You would imagine/hope his death (I think he was in his 40s) is a coincidence rather than foul play.

 

 

 

 

 

[Detroit Blues]

1 hour ago, when_you're_smiling said:

Shouldn’t really be ‘chit chat’ but I don’t know where else to post it.

 

Grant Whal, a well known American journalist has died at the Netherlands v Argentina game. He’d been detained earlier in the tournament for wearing a rainbow t-shirt to a game and had written several pieces criticising the Qatari regimes including one yesterday leading on the ‘death is part of life’ quotes the organisers had said about migrant worker deaths. His brother announced the news by posting a video on Instagram alleging foul play.

 

You would imagine/hope his death (I think he was in his 40s) is a coincidence rather than foul play.

 

 

 

 

 

I literally listened to his podcast while making dinner today, where he said that he felt sick but was still planning on attending the Argentina game. I'm absolutely stunned by that news.

 

Edited 10 December 2022 by Detroit Blues

[kushiro]

You've been wondering what that poster is on the kitchen wall in the Three Lions video, right?

 

 

No?

 

I'll tell you anyway.

 

Here it is.

 

 

It's from 'Goal' magazine just before Euro 1996, imagining what the England team would look like four years on. 

 

You probably know the faces, but just in case:

 

Neville G, Southgate, Ehiogu, James, Anderton, Neville P,

 

Butt, Redknapp, Shearer, Fowler, McManaman

 

 

How was the prediction? Interesting that of Fergie's famous five, three are in the photo, but the two who went on to have the most illustrious England careers are not - Beckham and Scholes. When the magazine came out, only Gary Neville had made his England debut.

 

Fast forward four years and this was the line up v Portugal in the first game of Euro 2000:

 

Seaman

Neville G, Campbell. Adams, Neville P

Ince, Beckham, Scholes, McManaman

Owen, Shearer

 

So they got four right. 

 

Of the others in the picture, Southgate and Fowler were in the squad, but Ehiogu, Anderton, James and Butt weren't. Redknapp might have made it had he not been injured.

 

That Euro 2000 squad was announced on the same day that Martin O'Neill quit to join Celtic. The following week as I was wandering round Brussels trying to find tickets for the England games, I came across Martin having a drink outside a cafe with Gerry Armstrong. After a double take, I went up to him and said 'Martin, I'm a Filbert Street regular and I wish you all the best at Celtic'.  He replied 'Oh, thank you very much', in that MON tone that makes you think he really means it. 

 

That was it. My only conversation with Martin, or any other Leicester manager. 

 

I should round this off with a neat 180 back into the main topic. Go back to the moment that poster was forming in the minds of the writers of Goal magazine - say March or April 1996. And ask Leicester fans at the time where the club might be four years later. The majority would have said 'Well, once we get that fool O'Neill out of our club we can start thinking about moving in the right direciton'.   

 

 

Edited 10 December 2022 by kushiro

[Livid]

6 hours ago, when_you're_smiling said:

Shouldn’t really be ‘chit chat’ but I don’t know where else to post it.

 

Grant Whal, a well known American journalist has died at the Netherlands v Argentina game. He’d been detained earlier in the tournament for wearing a rainbow t-shirt to a game and had written several pieces criticising the Qatari regimes including one yesterday leading on the ‘death is part of life’ quotes the organisers had said about migrant worker deaths. His brother announced the news by posting a video on Instagram alleging foul play.

 

You would imagine/hope his death (I think he was in his 40s) is a coincidence rather than foul play.

 

 

 

 

 

Terrible news to wake up to.

 

I followed him on Twitter, he seemed a really decent guy as well as a fine journalist. 
 

 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, Livid said:

Terrible news to wake up to.

 

I followed him on Twitter, he seemed a really decent guy as well as a fine journalist. 
 

 

He was clearly murdered. 

[Wymsey]

Have good feelings..

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hereford-worcester-63923556

[TJQuik]

16 hours ago, Nalis said:

Epic semi finals at world cups in the 21st century have been few and far between. Only Germany v Italy 2006 and of course Germany v Brazil 2014 spring to mind. 

I'd put Netherlands-Uruguay up there for the screamers from Van Bronckhorst and Forlan.

[st albans fox]

7 hours ago, when_you're_smiling said:

Shouldn’t really be ‘chit chat’ but I don’t know where else to post it.

 

Grant Whal, a well known American journalist has died at the Netherlands v Argentina game. He’d been detained earlier in the tournament for wearing a rainbow t-shirt to a game and had written several pieces criticising the Qatari regimes including one yesterday leading on the ‘death is part of life’ quotes the organisers had said about migrant worker deaths. His brother announced the news by posting a video on Instagram alleging foul play.

 

You would imagine/hope his death (I think he was in his 40s) is a coincidence rather than foul play.

 

 

 

 

 

He’d been ill during the tournament.  awful news - way too young …..

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

19 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

He’d been ill during the tournament.  awful news - way too young …..

I won't stick up for the regime but he'd been pretty ill during the tournament he wrote a piece saying how his chest was feeling very tight etc about a week ago and was on antibiotics etc, highly doubt any foul play involved. 

[Jaspa]

So the previous two World Cup Final losers though to the last 4 yesterday. Then today we have left the current World Champions, the most recent Euros winners who made it into this competition - finally we have England & Morocco.

[st albans fox]

59 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

I won't stick up for the regime but he'd been pretty ill during the tournament he wrote a piece saying how his chest was feeling very tight etc about a week ago and was on antibiotics etc, highly doubt any foul play involved. 

It’s serious conspiracy theory stuff to suggest anything different tbh - but these days it seems anything goes on SM 

[lcfc old boy]

20 hours ago, Nalis said:

Epic semi finals at world cups in the 21st century have been few and far between. Only Germany v Italy 2006 and of course Germany v Brazil 2014 spring to mind. 

there has only been ten , and if we put Netherlands v Uruguay that makes 3/10 epics which seeming so much is at stake is not really a bad return

[whoareyaaa]

4 hours ago, Lionator said:

He was clearly murdered. 

I would say so as well bit to much of a coincidence but it might not be of course. 

Edited 10 December 2022 by whoareyaaa

[BenTayfour]

World Cup and Football this season