Southgate Out!

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Given it’s an online football forum I would hope people take that it’s my opinion as a given, or this forum would be very boring if we trade in facts alone. 2021 should rankle with England fans forever. You’ve taken an early lead in a final against an ageing team in a home match in a hostile and partisan atmosphere, and you sit back and get pushed aside. Opportunities like that come around once in a lifetime, if that 

In my history of internet interaction, I've learned the hard way to very seldom assume that, sadly.

 

I certainly agree that 2021 was a missed opportunity, but I'm not sure at all if another manager would have made a difference there.

[Stadt]

His game management is probably the worst I've ever seen. To be 1-0 up against Italy and Croatia for so long in such big games and throw them with such a conservative approach is unforgivable. To do it once was bad enough but the second time in those circumstances was abysmal.

 

We've seen what his limit is, comfortable qualification, perfunctory group stage performances and then patchy performances against reasonable teams. We'll scrape by Senegal, most likely beat the D and C qualifiers before barely laying a glove on whoever we play in the semi.

[Super_horns]

2 hours ago, Stadt said:

His game management is probably the worst I've ever seen. To be 1-0 up against Italy and Croatia for so long in such big games and throw them with such a conservative approach is unforgivable. To do it once was bad enough but the second time in those circumstances was abysmal.

 

We've seen what his limit is, comfortable qualification, perfunctory group stage performances and then patchy performances against reasonable teams. We'll scrape by Senegal, most likely beat the D and C qualifiers before barely laying a glove on whoever we play in the semi.

Likely to be France or Argentina..

[TJQuik]

25 minutes ago, Super_horns said:

Likely to be France or Argentina..

It's going to be France, but hopefully they'll shit the bed against Poland

 

If by some miracle we got through I think(?) it would be Portugal in the semi, who I would heavily favour us against.

[Stadt]

1 hour ago, Super_horns said:

Likely to be France or Argentina..

Oh ok, quarter exit it is

[Alf Bentley]

This thread is going to be fun if we win the World Cup, isn't it? 

[BenTheFox]

Put some bloody respect on this man's name. The disrespect and vitriol directed towards him is frankly ridiculous. Him beating teams that we 'should' be beating is not a stick to beat him with. Countless England managers have struggled to beat lesser teams. He is objectively the most successful England manager of my lifetime and more importantly, he has made me take an interest in the national team once again after feeling so disengaged under Capello and Hodgson. Whatever happens now, I'm grateful to him. 

[filbertway]

1 hour ago, BenTheFox said:

Put some bloody respect on this man's name. The disrespect and vitriol directed towards him is frankly ridiculous. Him beating teams that we 'should' be beating is not a stick to beat him with. Countless England managers have struggled to beat lesser teams. He is objectively the most successful England manager of my lifetime and more importantly, he has made me take an interest in the national team once again after feeling so disengaged under Capello and Hodgson. Whatever happens now, I'm grateful to him. 

 

He's not particularly dislikable, in fact he seems like a a very nice bloke. Thinking about it, I think I more dislike the people that champion him come out with this stuff and then cry when you try and add context to the situation. He's managing one of the top 4/5 countries in the world in terms of ability and fitness. It's a testament to the quality available and level of opposition that we are able to fashion so few chances and still score so many goals. Then I have to people making out he's a generational talent and doing things that nobody else could pull off.

 

He's been tremendous at building team spirit and beating teams that are levels below his crop of players. In no small part down to the fact that he's very risk averse and we generally have a champions league team playing league one/championship standard teams.

 

2 glorious chances to win silverware previously have been blown by absolutely cacking it and not backing his players to take advantage of early leads and take the game away from the opposition.

 

He opts to play football that makes you want to rip your eyes out. Which is fine if you're Wales or Ireland and genuinely have little to no talent available. It's like watching Pulis being given the chance to manage Man City and applying his Stoke tactics. Just such a waste.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, filbertway said:

 

He's not particularly dislikable, in fact he seems like a a very nice bloke. Thinking about it, I think I more dislike the people that champion him come out with this stuff and then cry when you try and add context to the situation. He's managing one of the top 4/5 countries in the world in terms of ability and fitness. It's a testament to the quality available and level of opposition that we are able to fashion so few chances and still score so many goals. Then I have to people making out he's a generational talent and doing things that nobody else could pull off.

 

He's been tremendous at building team spirit and beating teams that are levels below his crop of players. In no small part down to the fact that he's very risk averse and we generally have a champions league team playing league one/championship standard teams.

 

2 glorious chances to win silverware previously have been blown by absolutely cacking it and not backing his players to take advantage of early leads and take the game away from the opposition.

 

He opts to play football that makes you want to rip your eyes out. Which is fine if you're Wales or Ireland and genuinely have little to no talent available. It's like watching Pulis being given the chance to manage Man City and applying his Stoke tactics. Just such a waste.

I rather think this is missing the point.

 

The point is that the bolded has been true for quite a significant part of English football history and yet only one manager has actually won big silverware with the aforementioned top4/5 crop of players.

 

It's certainly possible that another manager could surpass Southgate with the resources available now, but that's entirely conjectural and what is statistical fact is that he has come closer to a major trophy than any England manager since Ramsay having had broadly equal access to talent as the rest of them have, with a couple of exceptions.

[Mike Oxlong]

Like him or not we’ve played some pretty good football in this tournament so far being top scorers at this stage. QFs is par so he will really be earning his corn from here on in. Typically there are 6/7 teams that can win WC or the Euros at best (of which we are one) which just shows the extent to which we have repeatedly underperformed since ‘66 

[BenTheFox]

6 minutes ago, filbertway said:

 

He's not particularly dislikable, in fact he seems like a a very nice bloke. Thinking about it, I think I more dislike the people that champion him come out with this stuff and then cry when you try and add context to the situation. He's managing one of the top 4/5 countries in the world in terms of ability and fitness. It's a testament to the quality available and level of opposition that we are able to fashion so few chances and still score so many goals. Then I have to people making out he's a generational talent and doing things that nobody else could pull off.

 

He's been tremendous at building team spirit and beating teams that are levels below his crop of players. In no small part down to the fact that he's very risk averse and we generally have a champions league team playing league one/championship standard teams.

 

2 glorious chances to win silverware previously have been blown by absolutely cacking it and not backing his players to take advantage of early leads and take the game away from the opposition.

 

He opts to play football that makes you want to rip your eyes out. Which is fine if you're Wales or Ireland and genuinely have little to no talent available. It's like watching Pulis being given the chance to manage Man City and applying his Stoke tactics. Just such a waste.

Literally no one has ever said that. 

Also, I have no issue with it being pointed out that he has come unstuck against better opposition. However, people seem to have a massive issue with it being pointed out that previous England managers have struggled to get results against teams that we 'should' be beating. 

 

What I respect about Southgate is that he isn't afraid to make calls that are unpopular because he thinks that they are best for the team. Remember when we had Sven managing England? His approach was to just pick his best players and hope for the best. He even said that he had to pick Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard and Beckham because they were his best players and that he would have been crucified for leaving one out, even if it were to make the team more balanced! 

To address the final point, he is pragmatic. In a sense he has to be. England are not blessed with a plethora of quality defenders and the goalkeeper is decent but can be very erratic. How often have we seen England teams being completely overrun in the past? At least Southgate's approach allows England to stay in games.  Also, he hasn't always had a great squad. The 2018 was mostly bang average.  In 2018 the likes of Dele Alli, Jesse Lingard, Phil Jones, Danny Welbeck, Ashley Young, Fabian Delph were all in the squad with some of those making regular appearances. The three teams that came further in 2018 in France, Croatia and Belgium all had better players than England. 

[fuchsntf]

15 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Like him or not we’ve played some pretty good football in this tournament so far being top scorers at this stage. QFs is par so he will really be earning his corn from here on in. Typically there are 6/7 teams that can win WC or the Euros at best (of which we are one) which just shows the extent to which we have repeatedly underperformed since ‘66 

Underperformed is the vocabulary over 60yrs of 20-40 yr old fans and media..

could of,should ofs don’t get it done…one manager can make the odd difference,but quality & belief of players,playing in one of the top leagues in the world,surely comes down to overbearant arrogance against lacking in mental discipline,when under pressure.Plus over entitlement & undervaluing always the opposition is a serious English fan trait…

[BenTheFox]

It should also be pointed out how he evolved the squad. After the Iceland debacle in 2016 when it was clear to everyone that Rooney should no longer be in the England squad and that Hart definitely shouldn't be England's number one, the FA appointed Sam Allardyce who seemed dead set on shoehorning Rooney into the team and keeping Hart as his number one keeper. Allardyce even admitted later on that he wouldn't have moved the squad on as quickly or been as brave with his selections as Southgate. 

[Big Dave]

3 hours ago, BenTheFox said:

Put some bloody respect on this man's name. The disrespect and vitriol directed towards him is frankly ridiculous. Him beating teams that we 'should' be beating is not a stick to beat him with. Countless England managers have struggled to beat lesser teams. He is objectively the most successful England manager of my lifetime and more importantly, he has made me take an interest in the national team once again after feeling so disengaged under Capello and Hodgson. Whatever happens now, I'm grateful to him. 

 

Im the opposite - he is the reason that I am put off watching England.  On the whole, such dull, boring performances.  I have been less inclined to watch England since he has been in charge.

[BenTheFox]

1 minute ago, Big Dave said:

Im the opposite - he is the reason that I am put off watching England.  On the whole, such dull, boring performances.  I have been less inclined to watch England since he has been in charge.

Yes, we were an absolute joy to watch under Capello, Hodgson, McClaren and Sven...

[Sharpe's Fox]

If Southgates team put in a performance that is engaging against France, win or lose, then he'll shut people like me up. If we lose or even win in the same way as we played against teams we are equal or worse to on paper then the same questions about Southgate will be asked.

[Big Dave]

1 hour ago, BenTheFox said:

Yes, we were an absolute joy to watch under Capello, Hodgson, McClaren and Sven...

And on the whole, no better under Southgate.

[Big Dave]

1 hour ago, BenTheFox said:

Yes, we were an absolute joy to watch under Capello, Hodgson, McClaren and Sven...

I think Southgate has just been the straw that has broken the Camels back.

[HighPeakFox]

I just think some people enjoy finding fault, reflexively.

[leicsmac]

30 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I just think some people enjoy finding fault, reflexively.

What? Football fans (and I include myself in this) are incredibly reactionary on the topic of football? Say it ain't so.

[Daggers]

Pretty certain that most people use the boring football tag to cover up for their bigoted hatred of Southgate’s “woke politics”.

 

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

England fans should be more like Italian ones. They never seem to have been bothered by having a stultifyingly boring team, as long as they did well.

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

Pretty certain that most people use the boring football tag to cover up for their bigoted hatred of Southgate’s “woke politics”.

 

LOL…divide and conquer is still alive and well in England then 

[Stadt]

On 07/12/2022 at 07:56, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

England fans should be more like Italian ones. They never seem to have been bothered by having a stultifyingly boring team, as long as they did well.

Doing well for Italy is winning tournaments, like when they beat us in the Euros final. Under Southgate we've been boring and unsuccessful.

 

Going a bit further than we have under previous managers ≠ success.

[Greg2607]

1 hour ago, Stadt said:

Doing well for Italy is winning tournaments, like when they beat us in the Euros final. Under Southgate we've been boring and unsuccessful.

 

Going a bit further than we have under previous managers ≠ success.

It would in a normal profession though wouldn't it. 

 

If you were a sales manager and managed to improve the sales figures more than any of your predecessors you'd be calling it a success. 

 

Or if you managed a team that managed to process things quicker than any of the previous managers had done.  Or made more profit. 

 

Football is polarising because we as fans "expect" England to win tournaments.  Yet history suggests over the last 60 years that we dont. 

 

We look back glowingly at Euro 96 because England made a semi final.  Or Bobby Robson at Italia 90 for the same reason  

 

Venables and Robson are seen as good england managers. 

 

I think we have to accept that Southgate is a GOOD England manager. 

 

whether by luck or judgement, he seems to navigate tournaments relatively well. Compared to his predecessors. I see that as a success. 

 

now i dont think he'd be a good club manager... but that's an entirely different argument!