Tactics Under Maresca

[Number 6]

I thought Enzo said something along the lines of "the market is still open" in his post match comments? Clearly wants to bring in further personnel to make the system work to its best. 

 

Importantly got the defence in place so they can get accustomed to the shifting positions when playing out from the back.

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Faes is extremely slow. I've spent all weekend arguing with people on twitter. He's slower than Souttar, I'm convinced of it. Souttar covers the ground well for his size, Faes is either a plodder or his brain doesn't kick in quick enough and he's forever playing catch up.

At the end of the day he's not Harry Maguire slow.  I've never watched Faes and thought, 'jesus, this guy is slow' - for me, slow is watching maguire change direction like an oil tanker.

 

Over 50 yards maybe Faes is not the quickest,  but he moves well over short distances as we've seen from some of the blocks and tackles he's made.

[Lillehamring]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

That is a great example.

 

The speed of the passing isn't that fast, but all the touches except one are one touch and vertical / forwards, that's the big difference. Of all players it's Wilfred Ndidi at the end of the attack, on his left foot, and that shows how many players we are willing to commit to our attacks into the box. Players arriving later are also extremely difficult to stop, no matter how good you are.

 

 

It also demonstrates what you mentioned about our defenders standing on the ball waiting for the press to commit - iversen and vestergaard both do it.

Also, worth noting that that is the second string team playing maresca-ball, which bodes well from a rotational point of view.

 

And to be fair to ndidi, it was a poor pass from nacho - needed to be a bit further forward.

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, Lillehamring said:

At the end of the day he's not Harry Maguire slow.  I've never watched Faes and thought, 'jesus, this guy is slow' - for me, slow is watching maguire change direction like an oil tanker.

 

Over 50 yards maybe Faes is not the quickest,  but he moves well over short distances as we've seen from some of the blocks and tackles he's made.

 

The old adage is always true with centre backs as well, the first few yards are in your head. Evans and Soyuncu were good to watch for this, Soyuncu might be faster but Evans read the game better and when both were on form I don't really ever remember watching thinking Evans stood out for being slow. 

 

I'm not overly sure where everyone's so keen to give up on Faes so soon, if Maresca thinks there's a player there and wants to work with him then great. A lot of defending is about experience and confidence and it's easy to forget Faes still has a lot of growth in that sense to come. Soyuncu flourished with the calm of Evans next to him, Faes has never had that here, he's always had to try and cover for the guys around him. Be good to see him get a good run alongside Coady. 

 

If we start the season with Doyle, Coady and Faes I won't be upset. Would probably pick him ahead of Souttar tbh. 

[Lillehamring]

57 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Fair points @Finnegan, but give the man a break! He's been here for two weeks and highlighted two major points:

 

- The most important thing is to get the right squad.

- His short term goal is for the players and squad to understand the "idea" IE positional play and movements of the system.

 

We are making big strides in both those areas, and the initial signs are encouraging.

 

In regard to Ndidi, clearly he sees him as being better as a box-to-box number 8 instead of a sitting 6 like Winks. In this clip, Ndidi is great, he makes the inside channel run, keeps his composure and puts in a good low cross that finds Daka. If we wanted to be ultra critical, we could say that he should keep his cross grounded to make the finish easier, but that's being harsh. We played 4 players as one of the box-to-box midfielders in this game: KDH, Praet, Choudhury and Ndidi. Wilf was the second best in terms of offering attacking threat, the footage is there for all to see. If he had that level of performance every week, he will be a big asset for the squad and will contribute goals and assists. Surely we should give him a chance in that new role before writing him off?

 

 

 

Criticising squad selection and positions is totally legitimate, and you make a well-informed argument. I just think we should hold off a little bit before making more sweeping judgements. The game against Coventry will be the one!

 

 

Hamza played the #6 role, not the #8 role - i think it was mcateer that replaced KDH.  but otherwise, i agree, ndidi for a first crack at such a role, looked far better than Praet.  Daka has to hit the target though.

[Lillehamring]

49 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

@StriderHiryu I'm not being overtly critical of Maresca at this point, as I've just said, it's an example of the work we still have to do in the market.

 

If the season starts, he doesn't have the players he needs to make his vision work and he rigidly persists with playing players out of their best roles purely for the "long term plan" then I'll be irritated by this. That's not good, visionary management it's silly. You play the squad that you have in the moment. 

 

For now I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt because we've had all of two friendlies and I'm assuming that he's working with the knowledge that we will have square pegs available in due course for those positions.

 

I've said elsewhere, I'm generally pretty optimistic and feeling good. I'm just a bit concerned that we won't quite manage to really bring in all the bodies we need. 

 

As an aside, I'm sorry, though, you absolutely do need to calm yourself down, scrape yourself off the ceiling and relax a little on the praise for Ndidi. The cross isn't just "a bit high" it's a hopefully blind punt in to the middle that could have gone anywhere and I'd like you to watch that clip back again and actually concentrate on the white shirts, not the blue ones. 

 

Do you think a Championship defence is going to take up those positions and give him that much unchallenged space? I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer I'm really not, that's not my baseline, but come on. We were playing against Trialist E, F and Z. 

 

And if we doesn't want him in a holding role then we need to get rid of him. Maresca doesn't seem to want a "destroyer" sitting in front of the centre backs, he wants a ball player, which is great and I'm all for it. But then we need to try and move Wilf on. 

All reasonable points, but you seem to be getting hung up on what really is a lack of depth.  That 2nd XI is simply a chance to experiment, positionally, with some fringe players and to make sure everyone gets a run out - no one seriously expects us to start the season with any of the second string players involved.  Even if we don't bring anyone else in (which seems unlikely), based on that first XI no one was really a square peg.

[Lillehamring]

34 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Not at all, I just think people have a habit of getting carried away with both extremes of praise and criticism and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. 

 

I'm quite obviously not being particularly critical of the manager and I'm extremely optimistic about the brand of football he wants to play. 

 

But we saw the last manager we had here struggle to adapt his footballing philosophy for the caliber of playing staff available to him and I don't want to see his successor fall on that same sword. 

 

The reality is that a lot of our more technically limited players are still going to be here come August and September and I want to see how they're going to fit in because the likes of Ndidi and Daka absolutely have a lot to offer a team but we aren't going to see the best of them in the roles they've been assigned so far. 

Then Ndidi actually becomes a problem player - there's no way he can play his traditional deep DM role in this set up - his passing and control simply aren't up to it.  so the question then becomes - where else can he play?  Other than CB, the only real option is a box to box midfielder - which it was interesting to see him play. 

I guess that maresca is looking at it the same way you are - if ndidi is here at the start of the season, how can i use him?  Surely, then, to experiment now makes a lot of sense - even if so far the answer is...hmmm.

[TJB-fox]

All the jarring, wanky football manager addicts out in force making up words and formations trying to explain Enzo ball. Yawn 

[Finnegan]

9 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

you seem to be getting hung up on what really is a lack of depth

 

Yeah absolutely I am. It's just that I don't think that's a trivial thing to dismiss. Especially given:

 

9 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

first XI no one was really a square peg

 

This is extremely kind to Dennis Praet and even then overlooks that neither he nor Madivadua are at the level we'll want and need for quite probably two of the most important positions in the whole system. None of which is explicitly the manager's fault. 

 

I will absolutely calm down significantly if the next two players in are Casadei and a promising wide player. To be clear, I've far more anxieties about our DOF and recruitment right now than our manager. 

 

And @sphericalfox is absolutely right of course, we shouldn't overlook the fact that these plays simply are getting minutes in their legs which is one of the most important parts of preseason and why I largely ignore our friendlies most years tbf.

 

But this is probably our most important preseason since 2008 and there's still so many questions that need answering. 

 

[Lillehamring]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

The old adage is always true with centre backs as well, the first few yards are in your head. Evans and Soyuncu were good to watch for this, Soyuncu might be faster but Evans read the game better and when both were on form I don't really ever remember watching thinking Evans stood out for being slow. 

 

I'm not overly sure where everyone's so keen to give up on Faes so soon, if Maresca thinks there's a player there and wants to work with him then great. A lot of defending is about experience and confidence and it's easy to forget Faes still has a lot of growth in that sense to come. Soyuncu flourished with the calm of Evans next to him, Faes has never had that here, he's always had to try and cover for the guys around him. Be good to see him get a good run alongside Coady. 

 

If we start the season with Doyle, Coady and Faes I won't be upset. Would probably pick him ahead of Souttar tbh. 

yes - my inclination is to give him the benefit of the doubt, nothing about last season seems fair to judge individuals on.

It also feels like we can rotate these three and souttar and, heaven knows, even vestergaard throughout the season and not significantly change the level of performance.  it certainly seems as though, defensively, we're not likely to see any further additions, now, unless players leave.

[Lillehamring]

41 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Yeah absolutely I am. It's just that I don't think that's a trivial thing to dismiss. Especially given:

 

 

This is extremely kind to Dennis Praet and even then overlooks that neither he nor Madivadua are at the level we'll want and need for quite probably two of the most important positions in the whole system. None of which is explicitly the manager's fault. 

 

I will absolutely calm down significantly if the next two players in are Casadei and a promising wide player. To be clear, I've far more anxieties about our DOF and recruitment right now than our manager. 

 

And @sphericalfox is absolutely right of course, we shouldn't overlook the fact that these plays simply are getting minutes in their legs which is one of the most important parts of preseason and why I largely ignore our friendlies most years tbf.

 

But this is probably our most important preseason since 2008 and there's still so many questions that need answering. 

 

I'm not dismissing the lack of depth just suggesting that so soon into a massive rebuild squad depth is the last thing we need to be huffing and complaining about - as you say, the priority is getting the quality in - but we can't expect, playing at this level, to have quality throughout the squad depth, so it seems a waste of energy to pick apart the second string performance.

 

Praet played as one of two #8's so to say he was playing in the right shaped hole seems perfectly fair, seeing as that is why he was brought in and has most often played.  Did he look good enough, or like he wanted to be here - certainly not, but that doesn't mean  he's being played out of position, just for the wrong club.

 

We all want to see someone great come into that 2nd #8 spot, Casadei, seems ideal (and seems to be on his way?) but if he doesn't i don't fear that we are going to put out a substandard side against coventry, or one that is out of balance - for me, the first XI against northampton, without being a dream team, looked perfectly competent and more than capable of holding its own against any other EFL team.

 

As for the DOF (and i assume you're prepared to include Glover and the rest of the recruitment team in the process?),  so far have brought in three good players that, certainly in coady and winks, have given us qualities we were lacking last season, the addition of Hermansen sounds like a real coup, if they can get Casadei (who chelsea seemed to rule out) that must show that we can negotiate at the highest table - with 6/7 weeks to go, anxiety regarding that side of the game seems to be at best groundless, at worst, premature.

[KFS]

58 minutes ago, TJB-fox said:

All the jarring, wanky football manager addicts out in force making up words and formations trying to explain Enzo ball. Yawn 

Unreal 

[RonnieTodger]

These dynamic formations and positions will really upset the Facebook dads of SK2 and I’m here for it.

 

”just gerrit in the ****ing box!”

Edited 17 July 2023 by RonnieTodger

[sbfox]

1 hour ago, RonnieTodger said:

These dynamic formations and positions will really upset the Facebook dads of SK2 and I’m here for it.

 

”just gerrit in the ****ing box!”

It's not just SK2 is it? It's a significant majority of our fanbase. 

[Big_Nige]

1 hour ago, RonnieTodger said:

These dynamic formations and positions will really upset the Facebook dads of SK2 and I’m here for it.

 

”just gerrit in the ****ing box!”

Can confirm this is true. My seat is around these Facebook dad’s. I give it 5 minutes before one goes off about Ricardo wandering around in midfield 

[kingfox]

3 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

In regard to Ndidi, clearly he sees him as being better as a box-to-box number 8 instead of a sitting 6 like Winks.

 

You’re reading far too much into Ndidi’s position on Saturday tbh mate.

 

In the behind closed doors friendly against Peterborough, he played Choudhury in the ‘8’ role with Ndidi sitting as a ‘6’. Of course against Northampton he reversed their roles. 
 

Clearly he’s just experimenting on whether Choudhury or Ndidi suit an ‘8’ role better than a ‘6’. A lot will depend on who he thinks is more comfortable with the ball, you’d probably give Choudhury the edge right now as Ndidi’s passing was abysmal last season. With the ‘8’’s seemingly being utilised as aggressive pressers, you’d probably favour Choudhury in that current situation too. 
 

Breaking down the overall scenario, it’s extremely unlikely that either of them will start come the Coventry game, while in all fairness, I hope Ndidi is moved on by then 🤞🏻

[FoxinNotts]

On 16/07/2023 at 09:54, Scotch said:

Off the ball....

 

                        Hermansen

Justin     Faes          Coady          Doyle 

                            Winks    

               Casedei              KDH

Ricardo                                        Borges

                           Vardy

 

On the Ball....

 

                        Hermansen

       Faes            Coady               Doyle

                  Justin          Winks

Ricardo     Casedei       KDH     Borges

                            Vardy

              

 

 

[Jimmy]

4 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Fair points @Finnegan, but give the man a break! He's been here for two weeks and highlighted two major points:

 

- The most important thing is to get the right squad.

- His short term goal is for the players and squad to understand the "idea" IE positional play and movements of the system.

 

We are making big strides in both those areas, and the initial signs are encouraging.

 

In regard to Ndidi, clearly he sees him as being better as a box-to-box number 8 instead of a sitting 6 like Winks. In this clip, Ndidi is great, he makes the inside channel run, keeps his composure and puts in a good low cross that finds Daka. If we wanted to be ultra critical, we could say that he should keep his cross grounded to make the finish easier, but that's being harsh. We played 4 players as one of the box-to-box midfielders in this game: KDH, Praet, Choudhury and Ndidi. Wilf was the second best in terms of offering attacking threat, the footage is there for all to see. If he had that level of performance every week, he will be a big asset for the squad and will contribute goals and assists. Surely we should give him a chance in that new role before writing him off?

 

 

 

Criticising squad selection and positions is totally legitimate, and you make a well-informed argument. I just think we should hold off a little bit before making more sweeping judgements. The game against Coventry will be the one!

 

 

Hamza played the Winks role McAteer replace KDH in the box to box

[Jimmy]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

@StriderHiryu I'm not being overtly critical of Maresca at this point, as I've just said, it's an example of the work we still have to do in the market.

 

If the season starts, he doesn't have the players he needs to make his vision work and he rigidly persists with playing players out of their best roles purely for the "long term plan" then I'll be irritated by this. That's not good, visionary management it's silly. You play the squad that you have in the moment. 

 

For now I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt because we've had all of two friendlies and I'm assuming that he's working with the knowledge that we will have square pegs available in due course for those positions.

 

I've said elsewhere, I'm generally pretty optimistic and feeling good. I'm just a bit concerned that we won't quite manage to really bring in all the bodies we need. 

 

As an aside, I'm sorry, though, you absolutely do need to calm yourself down, scrape yourself off the ceiling and relax a little on the praise for Ndidi. The cross isn't just "a bit high" it's a hopefully blind punt in to the middle that could have gone anywhere and I'd like you to watch that clip back again and actually concentrate on the white shirts, not the blue ones. 

 

Do you think a Championship defence is going to take up those positions and give him that much unchallenged space? I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer I'm really not, that's not my baseline, but come on. We were playing against Trialist E, F and Z. 

 

And if we doesn't want him in a holding role then we need to get rid of him. Maresca doesn't seem to want a "destroyer" sitting in front of the centre backs, he wants a ball player, which is great and I'm all for it. But then we need to try and move Wilf on. 

Wilf playing as a box to box 8 leading the press and winning the ball higher alongside KDH wouldn't be the worst thing in the world he needs to work on his finishing but literally everyone in the squad can say the same

[TJB-fox]

2 hours ago, KFS said:

Unreal 

Clown - because enzoball hasn’t been mentioned once has it? Or any other ‘*insert manager name* ball’  eg brendan ball hasn’t been widely used either.

 

zzzzzz
 

 

[Daggers]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

@StriderHiryu I'm not being overtly critical of Maresca at this point, as I've just said, it's an example of the work we still have to do in the market.

 

If the season starts, he doesn't have the players he needs to make his vision work and he rigidly persists with playing players out of their best roles purely for the "long term plan" then I'll be irritated by this. That's not good, visionary management it's silly. You play the squad that you have in the moment. 

I’ve not made predictions for the season, judgement on transfers so far, or any comment on Maresca for precisely this reason.

 

One friendly relayed by Twitter and one against a decent but comparably poor Cobblers side does not the groundwork for detailed analysis make. So what Finners says perfectly sums up the state of play; there is nothing to get hyped or depressed about - aside from all my prior issues regarding not one item of the club’s treatment of fans being addressed, Rudkin still being here and the squad revamp moving forward at glacial speed.

[An Sionnach]

2 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Rudkin still being here and the squad revamp moving forward at glacial speed.

The revamp is having to cross the money and contract swamp , it was never going to be easy. We could speed it up by paying off contracts but this club seems loath to cut its losses , hate giving somebody something for nothing. Very, very bad mistakes have been made , they should acknowledge them and move on.

[Daggers]

1 minute ago, An Sionnach said:

The revamp is having to cross the money and contract swamp , it was never going to be easy. We could speed it up by paying off contracts but this club seems loath to cut its losses , hate giving somebody something for nothing. Very, very bad mistakes have been made , they should acknowledge them and move on.

I know what the club’s justification for everything will be, I simply don’t accept it. My full answer would repeat what I said last season and at the end of the season - and doesn’t belong in this thread.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

I’ve not made predictions for the season, judgement on transfers so far, or any comment on Maresca for precisely this reason.

 

One friendly relayed by Twitter and one against a decent but comparably poor Cobblers side does not the groundwork for detailed analysis make. So what Finners says perfectly sums up the state of play; there is nothing to get hyped or depressed about - aside from all my prior issues regarding not one item of the club’s treatment of fans being addressed, Rudkin still being here and the squad revamp moving forward at glacial speed.

Finally someone on my wavelength. 
 

Firstly, pre season matches always have this air of implementing ideas and they stay to a pattern. However when the real stuff starts it goes off script and becomes more chaotic. I will believe the ‘style’ when I see those ideas taking place amongst the chaos of a competitive fixture. 
 

The starting eleven is short of some real umph going forward. 

[FoxFossil]

The Faes v Souter argument may be unnecessary. With Peplight, and the potential number of games, we are surely going to rotate a lot more than under BR. Some opponents will require Souter/ Vesty size, others a different combination

What is encouraging is that all players may be tuned into a comprehensive and adaptable plan. Last year we played planless so many times with players put of position as BR had blanked others.