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Houses

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17 hours ago, browniefox said:

I'm currently going through the sale and purchase of houses. We had an estate agent that showed us around a property while the owner was home, all the way round she was saying how nice the place was and how well it had looked after the family that lived there, we then went outside and she proceeded to tell us all that the family had been through and basically said the house wasn't worth what it was up for as the owner had told them how much to put it up for. All the time we were talking outside she was tapping her lips with 2 fingers, she actually said about this "I'm doing this so they can't lipread me". 

 

Slimy fvckers the lot of them.

I don’t think they are anywhere near financial advisors, who are just after you to make their commissions. Estate agents are more difficult to read. They tend to be just a bit too busy for me, as in they tend to have their own views that they put on others, but there is no consistency.

 

The example above is a prime example of a busy estate agent. 

 

I had had one once who I gave them a rental figure I wanted for the property, and their answer was “you will never get that”. I insisted it went up for that figure, and we got it straight away. I just think they aren’t the brightest, but because of this they are quite dangerous as not bright people forming opinions is a dangerous mix.

 

I remember speaking to one once while I was driving. We were dealing with a property and I asked him what yield I would make if I purchased at x and rented it out at y. He just didn’t have a clue what I was on about.

 

Got loads of stories about them.

 

The best thing you can do in my opinion is pick the cheapest option who gets the best coverage for you and keep them at a distance as much as possible. That is unless you know of one that is good. 

 

Its easy to to value your house these days as you can check the area and similar properties on right move so you can see where you need to be.

 

Saying this there are a few decent ones about, I have a few who are exceptional, but there are some extremely poor ones, that are opinionated, but just not very bright. 

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18 hours ago, browniefox said:

I'm currently going through the sale and purchase of houses. We had an estate agent that showed us around a property while the owner was home, all the way round she was saying how nice the place was and how well it had looked after the family that lived there, we then went outside and she proceeded to tell us all that the family had been through and basically said the house wasn't worth what it was up for as the owner had told them how much to put it up for. All the time we were talking outside she was tapping her lips with 2 fingers, she actually said about this "I'm doing this so they can't lipread me". 

 

Slimy fvckers the lot of them.

Can’t trust them.

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40 minutes ago, Rob1742 said:

I don’t think they are anywhere near financial advisors, who are just after you to make their commissions. Estate agents are more difficult to read. They tend to be just a bit too busy for me, as in they tend to have their own views that they put on others, but there is no consistency.

 

The example above is a prime example of a busy estate agent. 

 

I had had one once who I gave them a rental figure I wanted for the property, and their answer was “you will never get that”. I insisted it went up for that figure, and we got it straight away. I just think they aren’t the brightest, but because of this they are quite dangerous as not bright people forming opinions is a dangerous mix.

 

I remember speaking to one once while I was driving. We were dealing with a property and I asked him what yield I would make if I purchased at x and rented it out at y. He just didn’t have a clue what I was on about.

 

Got loads of stories about them.

 

The best thing you can do in my opinion is pick the cheapest option who gets the best coverage for you and keep them at a distance as much as possible. That is unless you know of one that is good. 

 

Its easy to to value your house these days as you can check the area and similar properties on right move so you can see where you need to be.

 

Saying this there are a few decent ones about, I have a few who are exceptional, but there are some extremely poor ones, that are opinionated, but just not very bright. 

Luckily, when we put ours on the market we used one we used when I sold my house a couple of years ago we know is good, something that confirmed to me and the wife how good they were (suited us), was when valuing our house the Mrs said we don't want any faffing and just want to know value and cost, the guy came out looked around told us how they'd market it gave us value, told us their fee and said if you choose to go with us give us a call and we can go from there. Then we had another come in with the same instructions of no faffing, she started by telling us how they'd market the house, then spoke non stop for (and I'm not kidding) 15 minutes about how she is the head of department and how good she's done, what else they can offer us like mortgages and all that gumpf. When she left my Mrs said imagine her showing you round a house. Just waffled about nothing, we went with the first guy and sold to the first person to view the house. I'd recommend them highly. 

But the first one I was talking about was awful, that bad that I was tempted to go and speak to the people who's house we had viewed to tell them that she was telling us about family circumstance which was very sensitive, not sure id want that shared with every man and his dog.

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  • 2 weeks later...

B&Q are undoubtedly the worst company if you want home improvements, new kitchen, bathrooms etc. Bought a kitchen from them last year and the installers turned up and the kitchen hadn't been delivered so they were sitting around for a few hours waiting for it to come. For some reason, decided to use B&Q to buy a new bathroom. Ordered it in October and the fitting day was early April, a bit of a long wait but the price was good so I didn't mind. Anyway, the bathroom got delivered a week before it was due to be fitted, around 2 hours after I got a phone call saying they won't be able to fit it until the end of April, annoying but I thought nevermind. A week until the new fitting date I got another phone call saying it's being pushed back until 9th May (today) which is really irritating as I've had the bathroom in my garage for well over a month. They were supposed to come between 8-9 this morning and they haven't come yet. No phone call or anything to let me know whats going on. Truly abysmal company.

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5 hours ago, Ian Nacho said:

B&Q are undoubtedly the worst company if you want home improvements, new kitchen, bathrooms etc. Bought a kitchen from them last year and the installers turned up and the kitchen hadn't been delivered so they were sitting around for a few hours waiting for it to come. For some reason, decided to use B&Q to buy a new bathroom. Ordered it in October and the fitting day was early April, a bit of a long wait but the price was good so I didn't mind. Anyway, the bathroom got delivered a week before it was due to be fitted, around 2 hours after I got a phone call saying they won't be able to fit it until the end of April, annoying but I thought nevermind. A week until the new fitting date I got another phone call saying it's being pushed back until 9th May (today) which is really irritating as I've had the bathroom in my garage for well over a month. They were supposed to come between 8-9 this morning and they haven't come yet. No phone call or anything to let me know whats going on. Truly abysmal company.

How did you not know b & q were shit? 

 

I wouldn't buy a packet of nails from them let alone a kitchen and a bathroom.

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  • 4 months later...

How do you know when you can genuinely afford to move out? 

 

I am a first time buyer, looking to move out to live with my girlfriend and buy our first house but I am admittedly scared of biting the bullet so to speak. It isn't the moving out, it isn't the living with her it, it is 100% the money. 

 

I hear constantly about it's not just the house you've got all kinds of fees to consider on top. I know someone will turn around and go, budget it out, find your house price and average fees and you will know. I've done it. 

 

I feel like I'm a bit trapped with it, I want to move but I don't have the confidence in my finances to do so. I don't know where I need to be and even when I've calculated it, I'm always thinking, well what about some hidden extras and then saving away some more just in case. I'm also thinking well I can't just blow ALL my savings on a house deposit, fees etc in one go, with no budget for living costs and potential property development/repairs. Help?!

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3 minutes ago, HowardsBulletHeader said:

How do you know when you can genuinely afford to move out? 

 

I am a first time buyer, looking to move out to live with my girlfriend and buy our first house but I am admittedly scared of biting the bullet so to speak. It isn't the moving out, it isn't the living with her it, it is 100% the money. 

 

I hear constantly about it's not just the house you've got all kinds of fees to consider on top. I know someone will turn around and go, budget it out, find your house price and average fees and you will know. I've done it. 

 

I feel like I'm a bit trapped with it, I want to move but I don't have the confidence in my finances to do so. I don't know where I need to be and even when I've calculated it, I'm always thinking, well what about some hidden extras and then saving away some more just in case. I'm also thinking well I can't just blow ALL my savings on a house deposit, fees etc in one go, with no budget for living costs and potential property development/repairs. Help?!

If you have doubts don't do it. Pretty simple. 

 

All the information you need is on Google. Find out where you want to live and go from there.

 

You can work out the mortgage cost, gas, electric, water, Internet, council tax etc etc there

 

Work it out for the most expensive months, like winter, where you'll be using a lot of gas for heating, electricity for lighting and if you can cover that you'll have extra for the year because it's cheaper during summer. 

 

And no, you probably don't want to spaff your load in one go getting the house, something will always go wrong and having rainy day money is essential if you don't want to fall into a debt trap. 

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4 minutes ago, HowardsBulletHeader said:

How do you know when you can genuinely afford to move out? 

 

I am a first time buyer, looking to move out to live with my girlfriend and buy our first house but I am admittedly scared of biting the bullet so to speak. It isn't the moving out, it isn't the living with her it, it is 100% the money. 

 

I hear constantly about it's not just the house you've got all kinds of fees to consider on top. I know someone will turn around and go, budget it out, find your house price and average fees and you will know. I've done it. 

 

I feel like I'm a bit trapped with it, I want to move but I don't have the confidence in my finances to do so. I don't know where I need to be and even when I've calculated it, I'm always thinking, well what about some hidden extras and then saving away some more just in case. I'm also thinking well I can't just blow ALL my savings on a house deposit, fees etc in one go, with no budget for living costs and potential property development/repairs. Help?!

It's hard mate. Someone said to me that "if you wait until you can afford it, you'll never move out". Prices are always going up and it isn't going to get any cheaper. But of course it is wise to ensure you can afford it!

 

In my own experience, older houses cost a lot more money in maintenance. If you're looking at anything over 25 years old I'd get a "proper" survey done, not just the mortgage lender's standard one. if might cost a few hundred quid more but could save you a fortune in the long run,

 

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9 minutes ago, HowardsBulletHeader said:

How do you know when you can genuinely afford to move out? 

 

I am a first time buyer, looking to move out to live with my girlfriend and buy our first house but I am admittedly scared of biting the bullet so to speak. It isn't the moving out, it isn't the living with her it, it is 100% the money. 

 

I hear constantly about it's not just the house you've got all kinds of fees to consider on top. I know someone will turn around and go, budget it out, find your house price and average fees and you will know. I've done it. 

 

I feel like I'm a bit trapped with it, I want to move but I don't have the confidence in my finances to do so. I don't know where I need to be and even when I've calculated it, I'm always thinking, well what about some hidden extras and then saving away some more just in case. I'm also thinking well I can't just blow ALL my savings on a house deposit, fees etc in one go, with no budget for living costs and potential property development/repairs. Help?!

It is scary at first but honestly its one of the best things ever.

 

If you living at home and earning decent money my advice would be just to save save save or if you have any credit cards / loans get them paid off as it will give you more options when you are looking for a mortgage say you earn £1200 a month you should be looking at saving £700 a month I would say, but if you are buying with your girlfriend you need to both do the same if you ask me. If you earn different amounts still both put the same in then their can be no arguments worse case scenario you split up its 50/50 then (it happened to me in my first house!)

 

Don't move into the house with nothing in the bank. But also don't think you need all brand new stuff to move in sofas etc, get second hand to start with if needs be.  

 

Personally I would stay away from things like help to buy if you can as it just temps you to go for something deep down you cant afford and in  few years time you are going to end up with extra to pay. Regarding fees on top all can be added to the mortgage apart from Solicitors add about £1200 on for them..... if it less its money in your pocket.

 

Go speak to a mortgage advisor and get a fixed term for say 5 years least it will give you that security no matter what the biggest bill you will have is fixed for a few years.

 

Things to consider that first time it is easy to forget, life/critical illness insurance, contents and building insurance. The best thing I did was sign up for top cash back using them for all my insurances / utilities bills I got around £500 back this year.

 

And once you have worked out roughly how much total cost of you bill is, make sure it leaves you will at least a couple of 100, as it rarely works out on paper and you will still want to live a little (holidays, going out, Christmas/birthdays etc.)

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, HowardsBulletHeader said:

How do you know when you can genuinely afford to move out? 

 

I am a first time buyer, looking to move out to live with my girlfriend and buy our first house but I am admittedly scared of biting the bullet so to speak. It isn't the moving out, it isn't the living with her it, it is 100% the money. 

 

I hear constantly about it's not just the house you've got all kinds of fees to consider on top. I know someone will turn around and go, budget it out, find your house price and average fees and you will know. I've done it. 

 

I feel like I'm a bit trapped with it, I want to move but I don't have the confidence in my finances to do so. I don't know where I need to be and even when I've calculated it, I'm always thinking, well what about some hidden extras and then saving away some more just in case. I'm also thinking well I can't just blow ALL my savings on a house deposit, fees etc in one go, with no budget for living costs and potential property development/repairs. Help?!

Hi mate.

 

i work in a job where I effectively review if people can afford their mortgage and the best advice I would give is to go to a decent broker, be honest with income, outgoings and up to date credit card balances etc and then see if banks will lend you the money.

 

They include all sorts of figures averages from the Office of National Statistics which looks at cost of living where you live.

 

I know that doesn’t really answer the question you have asked but I guess what I am getting at is if a bank is willing to lend you the money they believe you can afford it. If it’s more a question of you want to spend your cash on other things then it’s probably not worth buying.

 

Hope that helps. If you have any questions then send me a PM.

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Seriously thinking of buying to let in Leicester. 

 

I can't afford anything even remotely close to where I'm living at the moment, and I don't want to commute for four hours every from outside of London where I could actually afford a place so supplementing my salary with rental income is an option whilst I continue to spunk tens of thousands a year on my London flat. 

 

I've rented several houses along the Narb, so buying for the purpose of renting to DMU students seems like a good next step.

 

Any landlords on here? Experiences?

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52 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

Seriously thinking of buying to let in Leicester. 

 

I can't afford anything even remotely close to where I'm living at the moment, and I don't want to commute for four hours every from outside of London where I could actually afford a place so supplementing my salary with rental income is an option whilst I continue to spunk tens of thousands a year on my London flat. 

 

I've rented several houses along the Narb, so buying for the purpose of renting to DMU students seems like a good next step.

 

Any landlords on here? Experiences?

Would you be buying outright or with a mortgage? From my limited experience you don’t tend to make money each month from them, it’s more supplementing retirement income or selling in a few years time to make cash that way.

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Thanks to all that have responded, appreciate your thoughts. 

 

I have also heard the same "if you wait until you can afford it, you never will" line for both houses and children at work, so doesn't surprise me to see it repeated here. 

 

I save approximately £500pm at the moment towards the house, I also have a H2B ISA and have done for nearly 2&1/2 years. Interesting point about avoiding H2B @goose2010 - any particular reason? 

 

I wouldn't move in with nothing in the bank, given the intimidation I'm already experiencing with committing to moving out, doing that would only make it worse! I am attempting to reach between 15-20% of the deposit, which I realise is ambitious but whilst I'm living at home, I think it is doable. I hear you about the second hand stuff, some of it can be as good as new at half the price if you get it right! 

 

Appreciate your notes regarding insurance as well for myself, it was something I hadn't even considered. 

 

@Costock_Fox thanks for your offer of advice, I may take you up on it when the time comes around. At work I've had this conversation numerous times and they said don't bother with a mortgage advisor, you can do their work on a comparison website and of course you're not paying any one to do something that you can definitely do yourself. I would be interested to hear your side of that? 

 

Thanks all.

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13 minutes ago, HowardsBulletHeader said:

Thanks to all that have responded, appreciate your thoughts. 

 

I have also heard the same "if you wait until you can afford it, you never will" line for both houses and children at work, so doesn't surprise me to see it repeated here. 

 

I save approximately £500pm at the moment towards the house, I also have a H2B ISA and have done for nearly 2&1/2 years. Interesting point about avoiding H2B @goose2010 - any particular reason? 

 

I wouldn't move in with nothing in the bank, given the intimidation I'm already experiencing with committing to moving out, doing that would only make it worse! I am attempting to reach between 15-20% of the deposit, which I realise is ambitious but whilst I'm living at home, I think it is doable. I hear you about the second hand stuff, some of it can be as good as new at half the price if you get it right! 

 

Appreciate your notes regarding insurance as well for myself, it was something I hadn't even considered. 

 

@Costock_Fox thanks for your offer of advice, I may take you up on it when the time comes around. At work I've had this conversation numerous times and they said don't bother with a mortgage advisor, you can do their work on a comparison website and of course you're not paying any one to do something that you can definitely do yourself. I would be interested to hear your side of that? 

 

Thanks all.

You can’t pay someone to research if a certain bank is likely to accept you in your situation so that’s why it’s worth paying one I think.

 

Be careful though, in my job I see that people get charged anything from £50 to £1500 believe it or not and some are really bad.

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2 hours ago, RoboFox said:

Seriously thinking of buying to let in Leicester. 

 

I can't afford anything even remotely close to where I'm living at the moment, and I don't want to commute for four hours every from outside of London where I could actually afford a place so supplementing my salary with rental income is an option whilst I continue to spunk tens of thousands a year on my London flat. 

 

I've rented several houses along the Narb, so buying for the purpose of renting to DMU students seems like a good next step.

 

Any landlords on here? Experiences?

Make sure you investigate the implications on your tax returns, and alot people forget the stamp duty costs.

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2 hours ago, RoboFox said:

Seriously thinking of buying to let in Leicester. 

 

I can't afford anything even remotely close to where I'm living at the moment, and I don't want to commute for four hours every from outside of London where I could actually afford a place so supplementing my salary with rental income is an option whilst I continue to spunk tens of thousands a year on my London flat. 

 

I've rented several houses along the Narb, so buying for the purpose of renting to DMU students seems like a good next step.

 

Any landlords on here? Experiences?

I would recommend if not, you have a substantial deposit, with the tax relief, many landlords are now selling up.  

 

If your a cash buyer, it's a good long term investment

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I had no student loans, no credit card  debt when i bought my first place. Same with the wife. Also both of our cars are owned outright (nothing fancy).

 

As per everyone if you can estimate all expenses versus take home pay it will help you figure it out.  I was given  some sound advice before i bought though. Always ensure you have 6 months of savings to carry yourself in the event you have a loss of employment or something big happen in your life that results in no income. Will give you time to either find a job or sell and not lose everything you've worked hard for. It also allows you to cover  big repairs to cars/property. The key is if you use it, replenish it.  Too many get  caught up in too many loans, bills that each month is scary.  Not always their fault as 'life shit' happens but is what it is.

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, HowardsBulletHeader said:

Thanks to all that have responded, appreciate your thoughts. 

 

I have also heard the same "if you wait until you can afford it, you never will" line for both houses and children at work, so doesn't surprise me to see it repeated here. 

 

I save approximately £500pm at the moment towards the house, I also have a H2B ISA and have done for nearly 2&1/2 years. Interesting point about avoiding H2B @goose2010 - any particular reason? 

 

I wouldn't move in with nothing in the bank, given the intimidation I'm already experiencing with committing to moving out, doing that would only make it worse! I am attempting to reach between 15-20% of the deposit, which I realise is ambitious but whilst I'm living at home, I think it is doable. I hear you about the second hand stuff, some of it can be as good as new at half the price if you get it right! 

 

Appreciate your notes regarding insurance as well for myself, it was something I hadn't even considered. 

 

@Costock_Fox thanks for your offer of advice, I may take you up on it when the time comes around. At work I've had this conversation numerous times and they said don't bother with a mortgage advisor, you can do their work on a comparison website and of course you're not paying any one to do something that you can definitely do yourself. I would be interested to hear your side of that? 

 

Thanks all.

We explored the option of H2B and I don't know if it was just me or the guy explaining to me but it was about as clear as mud! I just didn't like the sound of borrowing a chunk from the government 0% for X amount of years and then having to pay them back - and I think that increases if your house increases? just make sure if you do go with it you are totally clear with what would happen say if the market was to crash and you ended up in negative equity as I think they would still expect back the amount you borrowed rather than it dropping.

 

Which the amount you are saving and the deposit you are looking to put down you sound like you have your head screwed on and will be absolutely fine :) When you do go to buy think about the future, are you going to buy a house that you may want to sell in 3-5 years? if I was going to do that I would look at buying something you could do up not a completely sh*t tip but something that may need a new bathroom / kitchen and you would make some money on it (as long as the market stays as it is / going up again) or if you are looking for your 'forever' home look at something a bit newer and something that you can make your own and not have them thoughts in 5 years time that you need to move.

 

I would say try and think as much as you can about the future but don't worry to much as it doesn't always work out the way you expect it ( I brought my first house with a girl we split up a year later and I worked my ass off to keep the house on my own and it paid off as I made about 35k in 5 years) and just take the plunge.

 

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3 hours ago, goose2010 said:

We explored the option of H2B and I don't know if it was just me or the guy explaining to me but it was about as clear as mud! I just didn't like the sound of borrowing a chunk from the government 0% for X amount of years and then having to pay them back - and I think that increases if your house increases? just make sure if you do go with it you are totally clear with what would happen say if the market was to crash and you ended up in negative equity as I think they would still expect back the amount you borrowed rather than it dropping.

 

Which the amount you are saving and the deposit you are looking to put down you sound like you have your head screwed on and will be absolutely fine :) When you do go to buy think about the future, are you going to buy a house that you may want to sell in 3-5 years? if I was going to do that I would look at buying something you could do up not a completely sh*t tip but something that may need a new bathroom / kitchen and you would make some money on it (as long as the market stays as it is / going up again) or if you are looking for your 'forever' home look at something a bit newer and something that you can make your own and not have them thoughts in 5 years time that you need to move.

 

I would say try and think as much as you can about the future but don't worry to much as it doesn't always work out the way you expect it ( I brought my first house with a girl we split up a year later and I worked my ass off to keep the house on my own and it paid off as I made about 35k in 5 years) and just take the plunge.

 

Nope, help to buy if the market drops you pay the price of it at that time so you would pay less than you borrowed.

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On 11/09/2018 at 18:43, HowardsBulletHeader said:

Thanks to all that have responded, appreciate your thoughts. 

 

I have also heard the same "if you wait until you can afford it, you never will" line for both houses and children at work, so doesn't surprise me to see it repeated here. 

 

I save approximately £500pm at the moment towards the house, I also have a H2B ISA and have done for nearly 2&1/2 years. Interesting point about avoiding H2B @goose2010 - any particular reason? 

 

I wouldn't move in with nothing in the bank, given the intimidation I'm already experiencing with committing to moving out, doing that would only make it worse! I am attempting to reach between 15-20% of the deposit, which I realise is ambitious but whilst I'm living at home, I think it is doable. I hear you about the second hand stuff, some of it can be as good as new at half the price if you get it right! 

 

Appreciate your notes regarding insurance as well for myself, it was something I hadn't even considered. 

 

@Costock_Fox thanks for your offer of advice, I may take you up on it when the time comes around. At work I've had this conversation numerous times and they said don't bother with a mortgage advisor, you can do their work on a comparison website and of course you're not paying any one to do something that you can definitely do yourself. I would be interested to hear your side of that? 

 

Thanks all.

Whatever you do, stay away from a new build on these help to buy scheme's. They are the fcukin devil, I've only just gotten rid of one I bought with me ex back in 2005. It's taken 13 years and we still haven't sold it for what we paid for it, it's been the pits. The service charges go up at an astronomical rate and then there's the interest you have to start paying after x amount of years on the loan element from the building company or whoever else owns the percentage stake. We've finally walked away without having to pay anything else but in 13 years I dread to think what it cost us and neither of us lived there for several of those years.

 

If you need help in buying, go for the scheme where you can still purchase older houses but where the government put in x amount of the deposit in which you pay them back after 5-10 years, that seems a much more honest and straight forward scheme and older houses keep their value. Why would anyone want to buy a 5-10 year old soulless new build flat or maisonette when there's a shit load of bran new ones keep being built? This is the problem faced. I was way too naive and saw all the too good to be true things they tell you and throw in. 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/09/2018 at 18:43, HowardsBulletHeader said:

 

 

@Costock_Fox thanks for your offer of advice, I may take you up on it when the time comes around. At work I've had this conversation numerous times and they said don't bother with a mortgage advisor, you can do their work on a comparison website and of course you're not paying any one to do something that you can definitely do yourself. I would be interested to hear your side of that? 

 

Thanks all.

I went to a few brokers, the first wanted an up front fee. The second told me I couldn't get a mortgage with nationwide or first direct, I ended up with offers from both. The third started browsing on the internet looking at mortgages, I thought they had some special software with access to things I wouldn't. They're a farce. I quickly realised they also push products they get the best commission on.

 

Ended up doing the whole lot myself with careful consideration of my circumstances and got a pretty good deal.

 

In my view, go for a mortgage with no ECR, this means you can pay back as much as you like and also change the mortgage at anytime not when the deal ends with no penalty. I've paid back loads and remortgaged to 1.75%.

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I'm struggling to understand how anyone is getting mortgages on anything at the moment.  Another 3 bed house goes on at 270k today - it's ridiculous.  Less than 8 years ago a 4 bed was 220k, new houses spring up, people get fleeced, same said houses are now being pushed at 50k+ more than people paid for them new a few years ago.

 

Crazy times.

 

Meanwhile the older stuff in the area gets pushed up in price in line with the newer builds and low and behold eventually people reduce prices on them to sell as prices are overinflated. 

 

Interest rates rise above 2-3% in the next 5 years and people will get screwed over.  Bound to happen.

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