President Trump & the USA

[Finnegan]

American policy has never been to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel though has it? I mean, that's why there's such a big upheaval about this. 

 

Obama might have cocked up and backtracked (I don't know) but he clearly never made any official, grand statement on the issue. 

 

Most of the world's heads of states have, probably quite rightly, taken the "I'm not touching that with a barge pole" stance on any kind of official declaration. Trump has just done it for the attention and profile. 

 

He wants to be the guy willing to say "what everyone* is thinking!" Mr. Common Sense, man of the people, say it like it is! Just like our Mr Farage. 

 

Thing is, whilst we all do get fed up of the lies and euphemisms of politicians, there's also a reason heads of states of countries thousands of miles away from Israel and Korea don't get drawn in to making overly committed comments on immensely delicate issues. 

 

It does take finesse, it is important and words can start conflicts. 

 

I'm not "outraged" or "up in arms" (I think everyone involved is a plonker, churches and temples look cool but your imaginary friend isn't in there answering your wishes) but I do think the man is an idiot and there's very little credit to be given to him for this. 

 

It was stupid. 

 

(*everyone that thinks like Donald Trump) 

[Guest MattP]

13 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

American policy has never been to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel though has it? I mean, that's why there's such a big upheaval about this. 

According to Kate Andrews on Question Time last night it is, passed by a vote of 90-0 in the Senate.

 

I've not checked if that's fact though. 

[Guest MattP]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/12/06/in-1995-congress-reached-a-compromise-on-the-issue-of-jerusalem-trump-is-poised-to-end-it/?utm_term=.c84ffd59bd6e

 

Embassy move is actually enshrined into law, it's just been pushed down the road every 6 months

 

Passed by the senate (moving the embassy) but waivered by Clinton by the sounds of it.

 

Quote

 

The House and Senate passed a bill called the “Jerusalem Embassy Act,” which formally recognized the city as the country’s capital and called for the U.S. Embassy in Israel to be moved there from Tel Aviv by 1999. Support for the bill was overwhelming. It passed the Senate by a 93 to 5 vote, with four Republicans and one Democrat voting no. It passed the House 374 to 37, with 153 Democrats joining most of the new Republican majority that had swept into power in 1994.

The bill was not signed into law by then-President  Bill Clinton.

That waiver authority was a critical escape valve for Clinton and his successors. Initially, the legislation introduced by then-Kansas senator Bob Dole (R) mandated that groundbreaking on a new embassy in Jerusalem begin in 1996. To quell concerns from Clinton allies on the Hill, Dole added a provision that allowed the president to postpone implementation of the move for six months if “such suspension is necessary to protect the national security interests of the United States.”

The bill became law after Clinton declined to sign it for a 10-day period while Congress was in session. He, George W. Bush and Barack Obama all postponed the embassy move every six months for each of the 22 years since the law was enacted.

Passing the law allowed Congress to demonstrate commitment to the issue while not forcing the president to act on it. It also meant that, for those interested in doing so, the issue was kept alive as a political issue.

 

 

I'm not expert but I don't think his opposition legally has a leg to stand on opposing this.

 

[Finnegan]

Twenty two years is a long time to sit on a fence I suppose.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

Twenty two years is a long time to sit on a fence I suppose.

Absolutely incredible, I thought we were bad for kicking stuff into the long grass.

 

I don't doubt for one second Trump is doing this for reasons of provocation, personal ratings and support of the powerful Jewish lobby, but legally it looks like he is in the right and is upholding the government position.

[Finnegan]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

Absolutely incredible, I thought we were bad for kicking stuff into the long grass.

 

I don't doubt for one second Trump is doing this for reasons of provocation, personal ratings and support of the powerful Jewish lobby, but legally it looks like he is in the right and is upholding the government position.

 

And pretty much 90% of the planet agrees, hence the widespread condemnation. 

[Merging Cultures]

It's scary that we now actually normalise politicians teling blatent outright lies to get elected isn't it?
 
Trump actually tweeted the video himself, Clinton did say it - exact line was "Jeruselem is still the capital of Israel"

Politicians since the beginning of time.

Re. Clinton I think I was referring to when he was President not campaigning. Like the others I'm sure he said whatever to get elected.

[leicsmac]

Quoted from a friend, thought it reasonably spot on:

 

"I think there's a very powerful school of thought, particularly in the corporate world, that think reducing much of the Middle East to rubble is the best way to access resources. It ties in nicely with Israeli policy, both culturally and financially. And is justifiable within messianic religious doctrines, which are in a competition with each other to see who is proved right at their inevitable apocalypse.

It's interesting that this news comes 2 weeks after Genie energy suspending drilling in the Golan Heights. (Background: Israel gave Genie Energy, a company owned mostly by Rupert Murdoch, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and an ex-Israeli general, rights to drill in the Golan Heights, which are actually in Syria, in 2013. Drilling started last year, but just stopped cos.... there's no oil there.)

I'm wondering if they're trying to decimate more land now.

Once you see certain politicians and media moguls as what they are: Resources magnates - Suddenly a lot of stuff makes sense.

I find it hilarious and tragic in equal measure that guys like Bannon think they're pulling the strings, rather than being obvious useful puppets, and they are leading opinion among people like your colleague, gradually softening minds to the possibility of and necessity for WW3.

If you're not convinced, ask yourself: Why do the alt-right, Breitbart, and the right-wing media in general, hate climate change, renewable energy, Tesla, etc? Why are these seen as "liberal" issues? What is "liberal" about electric cars? It's just progress and there's money in progress. But it's a race, and the people telling you what to think have trillions invested in winning that race."

[Lionator]

It's taken less than a week but some cretin decided it'd be a good idea to bomb New York in response to the consequences of Trump's decision, thus proving Trump's point to his cretinous followers that Muslims are indeed a danger to Americans. So much bloody stupidity from all angles.

[Webbo]

6 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It's taken less than a week but some cretin decided it'd be a good idea to bomb New York in response to the consequences of Trump's decision, thus proving Trump's point to his cretinous followers that Muslims are indeed a danger to Americans. So much bloody stupidity from all angles.

Wasn't Obama President when the Boston Bombings took place?

[Lionator]

26 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Wasn't Obama President when the Boston Bombings took place?

Indeed, but the guilty party in this case has stated to police that he did it in revenge for last weeks actions.

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Indeed, but the guilty party in this case has stated to police that he did it in revenge for last weeks actions.

In that case it's all Trump's fault.

[leicsmac]

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/364284-trump-to-sign-directive-to-send-americans-back-to-moon-eventually-to

 

One thing I will say (and compliment them on) is that Repub administrations take manned spaceflight programs more seriously and with more focus that their Dem counterparts, and so it seems here. Well done.

 

However, given the amount of time it takes for a mission to go from conception to actual flight I do wish there were more bilateral agreements on this and the future direction of NASA didn't change along with every administration.

[Buce]

 

Ray Moore's wife: "We can't be anti-Semitic - one of our attorneys is a Jew".

 

Right up there with, "I can't be racist - I have a black friend".

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Ray Moore's wife: "We can't be anti-Semitic - one of our attorneys is a Jew".

 

Right up there with, "I can't be racist - I have a black friend".

And to add to this:

 

"I served with Moore in Vietnam, and we went to a brothel with underaged girls, but Moore didn't want any of them. So clearly he's not a nonce!"

 

(Paraphrased a little but that was pretty much what one of the guys who spoke at his rally said yesterday.)

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42314410

 

I guess all Trump can do is focus on the negative of the opposition rather than his own candidates good qualities, but that's a dangerous thing - one of the reasons he himself got into power in the first place.

[Jon the Hat]

16 hours ago, Lionator said:

It's taken less than a week but some cretin decided it'd be a good idea to bomb New York in response to the consequences of Trump's decision, thus proving Trump's point to his cretinous followers that Muslims are indeed a danger to Americans. So much bloody stupidity from all angles.

It isn't necessarily stupidity on either side if what they want is a conflict.

[Captain...]

59 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

It isn't necessarily stupidity on either side if what they want is a conflict.

If what they want is conflict, then they are pretty stupid regardless.

[Mike Oxlong]

[Izzy]

11 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

 I like this version

 

[Dr The Singh]

11 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Ray Moore's wife: "We can't be anti-Semitic - one of our attorneys is a Jew".

 

Right up there with, "I can't be racist - I have a black friend".

But you don't have any friends.....

[Guest]

Robert Mueller is closing in on Trump. Congress must protect his investigation

Max Bergmann and Max Boot

Published:11:00 GMT+00:00 Tue 12 December 2017

 

‘Failing to protect Mueller is not just moral cowardice, it’s also leaving America’s national security exposed.’ Photograph: Charles Dharapak/AP

The closer Mueller gets to Trump, the likelier it is that Trump will act to try to end his investigation. That’s why he must be protected now

Mueller is coming.

The investigation into Trump campaign coordination with Russia appears to be closing in on the president. The three indictments earlier this month of Trump campaign chairman, Paul Manafort; his deputy, Rick Gates; and foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos show that Robert Mueller is inside Trump’s campaign. The indictment and plea agreement of former national security adviser Michael Flynn now puts the investigation into the White House.

Trump-Russia investigation: the key questions answered

In most circumstances, arresting the president’s campaign chairman and his national security adviser, one of the most important positions in the entire government, would be seen as the culmination of a successful investigation. But what’s clear is that neither Flynn, nor Manafort, is the target of Mueller’s work.

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As anyone who watches Law and Order knows, prosecutors offer a plea deal in order to get information and build a case against someone higher up in the food chain. If Flynn does strike a plea agreement, there is logically only one person that Mueller would be interested in striking a deal over: the president.

Profile

Who is Robert Mueller?

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The walls are therefore closing in on Trump. But the closer Mueller gets to Trump, the likelier it is that Trump will act to try to end his investigation. Ask yourself this: if you committed a crime and had one of the nation’s top cops coming for you, wouldn’t you try anything, no matter how risky, to get out of it? The same circumstances led Richard Nixon to commit the Saturday night massacre.

There are already warning signs that Trump is laying ground work to act against Mueller’s investigation. Following Flynn’s indictment, Trump lashed out against the FBI and Mueller. His allies are now trying to attack the investigation’s credibility, claiming political bias and calling for it to be defunded.

The far-right media echo chamber, including many Republican congressmen, have launched a campaign against Mueller’s credibility. A Republican member of Congress is even seeking to strip the investigation of its funding.

There are already warning signs that Trump is laying ground work to act against Mueller’s investigation

This comes on the heels of a week of rapid fire distractions and jaw dropping comments from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave: using “Pocahontas” as a slur; retweeting racist websites and tweets; and picking fights with the UK prime minister. Additionally, there are reports that Trump’s lawyer Ty Cobb has told him the investigation will be wrapped up by the end of the year – and if it isn’t, he’ll go ballistic.

We are headed for a collision. Congress needs to act now to protect the Mueller investigation, head off a crisis, and make clear that the president is not above the law. 

Fortunately, members of Congress on both sides of the aisle are currently crafting legislation designed to deter Mueller from being fired. While this legislation is far from a panacea, it will help to tie Trump’s hands. But most importantly, it would send a signal to the country that the that the rule of law reigns supreme. 

‘We’re a nation of laws, laws that no one is above.’ Photograph: UPI / Barcroft Images

Whether or not this legislation makes it to the floor for a vote depends on Republican congressional leaders. Some in Congress say the legislation is unnecessary; if Mueller is fired, there will be bipartisan support on the Hill for action.

But the point is to stop the crisis before it starts. It’s not enough to let Trump act as a petty dictator and then try to pick up the pieces only after he destroys our democratic norms. Congress needs to be clear now that firing Mueller is unacceptable and un-American – we’re a nation of laws, laws that no one is above.

Failing to protect Mueller is not just moral cowardice, it’s also leaving America’s national security exposed. His investigation is uncovering details about how a foreign adversary intervened in our democratic process and whether it holds sway over high-ranking government officials. This was an attack on our sovereignty and an effort to undermine a key pillar of America’s global strength: America as a symbol of democracy, freedom, and the rule of law.

Q&A

What is Trump's history with Russia?

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If we fail to get to the bottom of what happened, and to hold those responsible to account, then the Kremlin will not just have succeeded in undermining our democratic process but in undermining American justice. American weakness in the face of aggression will only ensure that we are attacked again, and may embolden other foreign adversaries like China, Iran and North Korea to do the same. Americans will be left wondering whose interests our government is really serving: ours, or those of foreign adversaries.

Mueller investigation takes a big step closer to Donald Trump

This is why we, one conservative and one liberal, we have come together to urge Congress to pass legislation to protect the Mueller investigation: one of us worked for John McCain and Mitt Romney, and one for Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. We have been on the opposite sides of countless foreign policy and political debates. But we have put aside political differences, because ensuring American self-governance is too important.

We hope that those in Congress can follow suit.

• Max Bergmann is a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, he served in the state department from 2011-2017. Max Boot is a senior fellow at the council on foreign relations and a former foreign policy adviser to John McCain, Mitt Romney and Marco Rubio.

[The Doctor]

Ray Moore beaten by Jones - first time Alabama has gone dem in a quarter of a century.

[urban.spaceman]

17 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Ray Moore beaten by Jones - first time Alabama has gone dem in a quarter of a century.

Oh to be a fly on the wall during that meltdown. 

[The Doctor]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

Oh to be a fly on the wall during that meltdown. 

I'm looking forward to trumps normal late night breakdown over this. 

 

Wouldn't get too excited by this though. Rep were running a pro-slavery nonce and it was still a tight race.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, The Doctor said:

Ray Moore beaten by Jones - first time Alabama has gone dem in a quarter of a century.

Got exactly what they deserved putting a candidate like that up.