Kopfkino Posted 24 November 2018 Share Posted 24 November 2018 29 minutes ago, st albans fox said: Has this question been asked earlier in the 937 pages? people are exercised that may is accepting stuff she said she wouldn’t at the outset of negotiations surely people understand that you enter a negotiation with an extreme public position on the basis that you will have to compromise somewhat with both sides giving ground. The lower your starting position the lower your finishing point. You can disagree with what she has come back with but to ‘hang’ her for the fact it differs from the position she stated at the outset is at best opportunistic and potentially just plain ignorant. All the politicians with their noses in their respective troughs ..... who knew ???? Steady on... I've not yet heard a coherent argument anywhere from hardcore leavers against the deal beyond buzzwords like vassalage and surrenderer so it might be a bit much for them to understand that negotiations tend to mean being pulled away from your original positions a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breadandcheese Posted 24 November 2018 Share Posted 24 November 2018 16 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-baubles-theresa-may-issues-knighthood-and-privy-council-appointments-ahead-of-crucial-vote-11561532 ****ing outrage. I’m beyond disgusted with this government. https://www.iaindale.com/articles/tory-mps-go-to-war-over-john-hayes-utter-cock-knighthood You'll like this Jon. Read the congratulatory letter from Mark Francois MP. Hilarious. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 18 hours ago, breadandcheese said: https://www.iaindale.com/articles/tory-mps-go-to-war-over-john-hayes-utter-cock-knighthood You'll like this Jon. Read the congratulatory letter from Mark Francois MP. Hilarious. Mark Francis MP might be my new favourite ERG member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said: Mark Francis MP might be my new favourite ERG member! You have a favourite ERG member? What an interesting life you must lead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 46 minutes ago, MattP said: Interesting. Is there any chance you could copy and paste this, please, Matt? It's slightly too small for me to read and it blurs when blown up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 4 hours ago, MattP said: Interesting. The last paragraph of that Blair article is very interesting. He clearly has some hope that he can help influence the EU into making policy changes after May's deal is voted down - particularly on immigration - that will allow Remain to win a hypothetical second referendum. He did visit Brussels recently to meet senior EU people, didn't he? Though he might be deluding himself in thinking that he still has any influence (self-delusion being a bit of a personality trait of his!). In his interview with Marr this morning, he was also advocating a referendum offering a choice only between Remain and No Deal, after May's deal is defeated in parliament (if it is). That's sneaky tactics on his part. He obviously feels that the electorate would shy away from No Deal, ensuring a Remain outcome.....whereas the combined vote for No Deal and May's Deal might be greater than the vote for Remain. I can't see it being a good or acceptable idea for a hypothetical referendum to be just Remain v. No Deal. Some people will actively prefer May's deal, some Remainers would prefer May's Deal to No Deal (not sure which I'd vote for) and some No Dealers would prefer May's Deal to Remain. There's also growing talk about a parliamentary alliance to revert to a Norway option if May's deal is defeated. Something along those lines, but with EU or domestic action to address immigration concerns and checks in the Irish Sea to forestall a hard Irish border would be interesting if we have to have Brexit in some form or another.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 On 24/11/2018 at 12:24, st albans fox said: Has this question been asked earlier in the 937 pages? people are exercised that may is accepting stuff she said she wouldn’t at the outset of negotiations surely people understand that you enter a negotiation with an extreme public position on the basis that you will have to compromise somewhat with both sides giving ground. The lower your starting position the lower your finishing point. You can disagree with what she has come back with but to ‘hang’ her for the fact it differs from the position she stated at the outset is at best opportunistic and potentially just plain ignorant. All the politicians with their noses in their respective troughs ..... who knew ???? Yeah - who knew an ardent remainer would balls up any negotiations to leave the EU. I'm confused enough to think she's playing the long game in so much as that the deal that she has negotiated will clearly (?) be rejected by MP's here and will possibly pave the way for Referendum 2...at which point the British public will be thoroughly sick of the whole thing and end up voting to remain*...which is what she wanted all along. *yeah, I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Voll Blau Posted 25 November 2018 Popular Post Share Posted 25 November 2018 7 minutes ago, Milo said: Yeah - who knew an ardent remainer would balls up any negotiations to leave the EU. I'm confused enough to think she's playing the long game in so much as that the deal that she has negotiated will clearly (?) be rejected by MP's here and will possibly pave the way for Referendum 2...at which point the British public will be thoroughly sick of the whole thing and end up voting to remain*...which is what she wanted all along. *yeah, I know Sorry, but no. No conspiracy here. Leavers have had every opportunity to come up with ways to do this better if they thought they could, and they've done fvck all but present us with consistent and evidence-free whingeing for two-and-a-half years. Until someone is willing to explain how they plausibly could have done better (Tory or Labour), I'm going to choose to believe this is actually the best deal we could have come away with. Remainers have constantly been told we need to embrace the decision for the good of the country. I think quite a few Leavers now need to practice what they preach too? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 31 minutes ago, Milo said: Yeah - who knew an ardent remainer would balls up any negotiations to leave the EU. I'm confused enough to think she's playing the long game in so much as that the deal that she has negotiated will clearly (?) be rejected by MP's here and will possibly pave the way for Referendum 2...at which point the British public will be thoroughly sick of the whole thing and end up voting to remain*...which is what she wanted all along. *yeah, I know Wasn’t actually the point I was making ...... I was merely questioning the attitude of both camps in being totally unrealistic about what a negotiation involves ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 16 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Sorry, but no. No conspiracy here. Leavers have had every opportunity to come up with ways to do this better if they thought they could, and they've done fvck all but present us with consistent and evidence-free whingeing for two-and-a-half years. Until someone is willing to explain how they plausibly could have done better (Tory or Labour), I'm going to choose to believe this is actually the best deal we could have come away with. Remainers have constantly been told we need to embrace the decision for the good of the country. I think quite a few Leavers now need to practice what they preach too? Really? Fair play to you, then. My comments were more lighthearted that particularly heartfelt. The whole thing is fairly shamboloic. Re remainers embracing what they preach - they’ve also been told for 2 years by Blair and co that they didn’t know what they were voting for...but I’m sure a big chunk of them certainly didn’t vote for this monstrosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 2 minutes ago, Milo said: Really? Fair play to you, then. My comments were more lighthearted that particularly heartfelt. The whole thing is fairly shamboloic. Re remainers embracing what they preach - they’ve also been told for 2 years by Blair and co that they didn’t know what they were voting for...but I’m sure a big chunk of them certainly didn’t vote for this monstrosity. People voted to leave the EU. That was it. That's what's happening. It's not May's fault such a complex issue was condensed into such a simple question. I choose to believe it's the best possible deal because I'm presented with no evidence that convinces me that anyone else could've done better - not because I think it's a good deal. Christ, I'm actually sticking up for her here. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 20 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: People voted to leave the EU. That was it. That's what's happening. It's not May's fault such a complex issue was condensed into such a simple question. I choose to believe it's the best possible deal because I'm presented with no evidence that convinces me that anyone else could've done better - not because I think it's a good deal. Christ, I'm actually sticking up for her here. No deal would be a better a deal........or remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 I don't think May was ever an ardent remainer, especially after he run ins with the ECJ. I think she only backed remain because she thought it'd win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiritwalker Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 It's clear than any deal May had come back with would be rejected by parliament. Parliament is so divided by those with entrenched views and those with vested intrests that they will not agree on any deal, no deal, or no Brexit. I think this will inevitably be put back to the public to decide. The big issue will be what should on the ballot paper. deal/no deal no deal/ remain deal/ remain Personaly I would like to see 2 questions on the ballot, firstly leave/ remain and secondly if the vote is to leave then deal/ no deal. I know we have already been asked the first question but I honestly don't see any other way out of this intransigence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wymsey Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 (edited) Just wished the public referendum had never happened, and thus only allowed the government to solely decide on which option is best for the country in the long-term via key MP etc votes. Wonder how Russia, considering our relationship with has been badly affected in recent times on what they've committed on UK soil alone, feel about this situation?.. Edited 25 November 2018 by Wymeswold fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 I still don't understand why Brexit voters are unhappy; they told us all along that they knew what they were voting for. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 1 hour ago, Spiritwalker said: It's clear than any deal May had come back with would be rejected by parliament. Parliament is so divided by those with entrenched views and those with vested intrests that they will not agree on any deal, no deal, or no Brexit. I think this will inevitably be put back to the public to decide. The big issue will be what should on the ballot paper. deal/no deal no deal/ remain deal/ remain Personaly I would like to see 2 questions on the ballot, firstly leave/ remain and secondly if the vote is to leave then deal/ no deal. I know we have already been asked the first question but I honestly don't see any other way out of this intransigence. Are you sure/have you changed your mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxNotFox Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 2 hours ago, bovril said: I don't think May was ever an ardent remainer, especially after he run ins with the ECJ. I've often wondered if that's left her feeling she has a score to settle. Hell hath no fury etc. I get the feeling she's not one to be crossed and will harbour grudges. She may appear to have a placid exterior but I suspect underneath lurks a complete and utter... I recall a look of complete and utter contempt (the proverbial 'if looks could kill') she gave from the despatch box to some questioning Labour MP (Heidi Alexander??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 12 hours ago, Buce said: You have a favourite ERG member? What an interesting life you must lead. It was a joke. I can name JRM and Dan Hannan, and now this bloke whose name I’ve forgotten already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 1 hour ago, Charl91 said: I still don't understand why Brexit voters are unhappy; they told us all along that they knew what they were voting for. We voted for no deal, but with two years of preparation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 25 November 2018 Share Posted 25 November 2018 2 hours ago, Spiritwalker said: It's clear than any deal May had come back with would be rejected by parliament. Parliament is so divided by those with entrenched views and those with vested intrests that they will not agree on any deal, no deal, or no Brexit. I think this will inevitably be put back to the public to decide. The big issue will be what should on the ballot paper. deal/no deal no deal/ remain deal/ remain Personaly I would like to see 2 questions on the ballot, firstly leave/ remain and secondly if the vote is to leave then deal/ no deal. I know we have already been asked the first question but I honestly don't see any other way out of this intransigence. If the first question gets asked again and the second question only comes into play if leave wins. Should people who vote remain get an option in the second round or should it only be open to people who vote leave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiritwalker Posted 26 November 2018 Share Posted 26 November 2018 9 hours ago, Strokes said: If the first question gets asked again and the second question only comes into play if leave wins. Should people who vote remain get an option in the second round or should it only be open to people who vote leave? Good question. I would say that it should be open to everyone as the outcome would effect all of us but it could be argued the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 26 November 2018 Share Posted 26 November 2018 Can anyone explain to me why our fishing industry is constantly dismissed as only minorly important but macron has made a pointed statement on how important us giving up access to our fishing waters is for a future trade deal? I honestly don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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