The "do they mean us?" thread pt 2

[urban.spaceman]

3 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/nov/17/brendan-rodgers-frank-lampard-leicester-chelsea-battle-for-second-premier-league

Brendan Rodgers and Frank Lampard prove worth in battle for second place

There's a Liverpool fan in the comments trying to claim that they're the underdogs for the title compared to us and Chelsea.

[Corky]

It must be really hard to compete with a team whose record signing is well below half of theirs.

[KingsX]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Superb video! I've thought about doing another tactical thread this season, but given how good we are playing, plenty of other people are doing it for me!

 

The only thing I would say here is that we have our own nuances that lie somewhere between Man City and Liverpool, but we aren't quite either of those teams.

 

- For Liverpool, Firmino plays as a false 9 and drops back to drag the centre backs out of position, link play, and to make space for Mane and Salah who are Liverpool's primary goal threat, whereas Leicester rely on our elite strike in Vardy for goals, hence why our wingers score less. (Though they should be scoring more!).

 

- We have a highly technical midfield like Man City do, whereas Liverpool rely on three "shuttlers" who can perform an incredible amount of work. That allows their fullbacks to essentially operate as wingers which is why Robertson and TAA have more assists than many wingers across European football.

 

- Man City's attackers swap positions during an attack more than ours do, for example it's not uncommon to see Sterling at centre forward and Aguero on the wings. They also use "Inverted" fullbacks which allow them to cycle possession more efficiently and they still lead the possession stats by a considerable margin in the league. Believe it or not we actually have less possession that Brighton and Bournemouth but are a lot more dangerous with the ball!

 

I think the other thing that should be pointed out is that Rodgers has successfully found a way to beat teams that play a defensive low block like Palace and Burnley. Essentially it's the Man City way where we play the ball from side to side to force the opposition to move, and we then try to create a position where a winger or full back is one v one against a defender, so they can beat them and put in a cross to create a scoring opportunity. The trick is we do it at pace, which we did not do when Puel was in charge. This means that you keep the opponents on their toes and can force an opening and it's one of the ways that Gray has looked so good. When he comes on after 60 minutes, his direct running and pace is perfect to find if he's one v one. 

 

IMO your opening statement is too kind.  That vid had lazy mispronunciations, made some outdated and debatable points, and the "scribbling hand" effect was covering up thin content in spots.

 

I got more out of your last four paragraphs than the whole clip.

[bovril]

Stephen Graham giving us a little shout out on Desert Island Discs:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000bdlj

[CosbehFox]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50446499

 

Apparently we’ve linked up with some Bulgarian second division team?

[StriderHiryu]

4 hours ago, KingsX said:

 

IMO your opening statement is too kind.  That vid had lazy mispronunciations, made some outdated and debatable points, and the "scribbling hand" effect was covering up thin content in spots.

 

I got more out of your last four paragraphs than the whole clip.

You are too kind!

One more thing that I don't think gets enough praise are the "pressing traps" that we set under Rodgers. Man City and Liverpool also use these, but they are extremely effective in our setup because of players like Ndidi and Ricardo.

 

 

^ I'm not 100% sure who came up with the concept (I believe it was a German coach, but not Klopp), but the idea and execution of pressing traps is IMO pure genius and has transformed modern football. It's all well and good chasing the ball high up the pitch, but it's impossible for anyone to chase the ball for 90 minutes, especially when the ball can be played around. The idea of pressing traps then is to press the opposition in such a way that they think they have a way to pass out of trouble... only to find that the other team have specifically setup expecting them to make that exact pass.

 

In the example above against Arsenal, you can see just how effective this is. Maddison presses Bellerin and note how he is positioned. He's blocking the pass to Guendozi (29) but allowing him to try a pass to Torreira. But who is marking Torreira? Only Wilfred "he'll steal the ball from you" Ndidi. What if Bellerin tries a round the corner pass to tr and reach Guendozi? Not only is that pass tricky to execute, but Tielemans would have time to close him down and challenge. What if Bellerin tries to switch the ball? Look where Ayoze Perez is standing to stop that option. This means that Bellerin decides to play the "safe" pass to David Luiz... but who is that lurking in the shadows behind him? Why it's only the man that would chase a brown paper bag in the wind Jamie Vardy! And Harvery Barnes is also in the nearby vicinity and whose man it is to close down.

 

 

^ A few seconds later, and Leicester have stolen the ball high up the field by applying their trap and it means we have a chance to score. Then note how slick our counter play is, Vardy unselfishly runs across goal to take one defender with him whilst Maddison and Tielemans push forwards to make an option or collect a rebound. It means Perez has a great sighter of goal and on another day sticks it away for 1-0.

 

Here is the sequence in it's entirety:

 

 

I think that after Liverpool we are the next best pressing team in the league. Ndidi and Ricardo are monsters and even Tielemans and Maddison have proven very good at it. And having Jamie Vardy who sniffs defensive mistakes like a rabid bloodhound only improves it further. The reason Liverpool are better is that they have played the style for a longer time and their midfield 3 are higher energy players than ours. But they sacrifice creativity from those players (which they make up for in Robertson and Alexander-Arnold), whereas in TIelemans and Maddison we have both a deep lying and an offensive play maker. Man City are also very good at the press, but tend to suffocate the opposition through denying them possession, something they are brilliant at doing.

 

Next time you are at the game, keep an eye out for what's happening off the ball. Honestly it's pretty incredible the way we play and you will notice a whole set of nuances to the team. Credit to the coaching team of course, who not only came up with it, but have manged to get their ideas across so well in such a short space of time.

 

It's also worth noting that it takes time to get used to a system like this. At Liverpool it took Fabinho 6 months before he was used regularly and Keita is still not a starter. So what is scary is that 3-4 months from now we should be even better at this style of play than we are now!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 November 2019 by StriderHiryu

[Guest ttfn]

1 minute ago, StriderHiryu said:

You are too kind!

One more thing that I don't think gets enough praise are the "pressing traps" that we set under Rodgers. Man City and Liverpool also use these, but they are extremely effective in our setup because of players like Ndidi and Ricardo.

 

 

I'm not 100% sure who came up with the concept (I believe it was a German coach, but not Klopp), but the idea and execution of pressing traps is IMO pure genius and has transformed modern football. It's all well and good chasing the ball high up the pitch, but it's impossible for anyone to chase the ball for 90 minutes, especially when the ball can be played around. The idea of pressing traps then is to press the opposition in such a way that they think they have a way to pass our of trouble... only to find that the other team have specifically setup expecting them to make that exact pass.

 

In the example above against Arsenal, you can see just how effective this is. Maddison presses Bellerin and notw how he is positioned. He's blocking the pass to Guendozi (29) but allowing him to try a pass to Torreira. But who is marking Torreira? Only Wilfred "he'll steal the ball from you" Ndidi! What if Bellerin tries a round the corner pass to tr and reach Guendozi? Not only is that pass tricky to execute, but Tielemans would have time to close him down and challenge. What if Bellerin tries to switch the ball? Look where Ayoze Perez is standing to stop that option. This means that Bellerin decides to play the "safe" pass to David Luiz... but who is that lurking in the shadows behind him? Why it's only the man that would chase a brown paper bag in the wind Jamie Vardy!

 

 

A few seconds later, and Leicester have stolen the ball high up the field by applying their trap and it means we have a chance to score. Then note how slick our counter play is, Vardy unselfishly runs across goal to take one defender with him whilst Maddison and Tielemans push forwards to make an option or collect a rebound.

 

Here is the sequence in it's entirety:

 

 

I think that after Liverpool we are the next best pressing team in the league. Ndidi and Ricardo are monsters and even Tielemans and Maddison have proven very good at it. And having Jamie Vardy who sniffs defensive mistakes like a rabid bloodhound only improves it further. The reason Liverpool are better is that they have played the style for a longer time and their midfield 3 are higher energy players than ours. But they sacrifice creativity from those players, whereas in TIelemans and Maddison we have both a deep lying and an offensive play maker. Man City are also very good at the press, but tend to suffocate the opposition through denying them possession, something they are brilliant at doing.

 

Next time you are at the game, keep an eye out for what's happening off the ball. Honestly it's pretty incredible the way we play and you will notice a whole set of nuances to the team. Credit to the coaching team of course, who not only came up with it, but have manged to get their ideas across so well in such a short space of time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’d definitely read your tactics thread if you resurrected it. Always interesting.

[StriderHiryu]

Just now, ttfn said:

I’d definitely read your tactics thread if you resurrected it. Always interesting.

I'd like to read Brendan Rodgers tactics thread! He knows what he's talking about!

[HighPeakFox]

Just now, StriderHiryu said:

I'd like to read Brendan Rodgers tactics thread! He knows what he's talking about!

Meh, I reckon you're just Brendan showing off. Get in the bin mate 

 

Seriously, much respect. Look forward to meeting you for a beer pre match at some point. 

[urban.spaceman]

14 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50446499

 

Apparently we’ve linked up with some Bulgarian second division team?

Quite random. Can’t find anything online. 

[Nicolo Barella]

9 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

You are too kind!

One more thing that I don't think gets enough praise are the "pressing traps" that we set under Rodgers. Man City and Liverpool also use these, but they are extremely effective in our setup because of players like Ndidi and Ricardo.

 

 

I'm not 100% sure who came up with the concept (I believe it was a German coach, but not Klopp), but the idea and execution of pressing traps is IMO pure genius and has transformed modern football. It's all well and good chasing the ball high up the pitch, but it's impossible for anyone to chase the ball for 90 minutes, especially when the ball can be played around. The idea of pressing traps then is to press the opposition in such a way that they think they have a way to pass our of trouble... only to find that the other team have specifically setup expecting them to make that exact pass.

 

In the example above against Arsenal, you can see just how effective this is. Maddison presses Bellerin and notw how he is positioned. He's blocking the pass to Guendozi (29) but allowing him to try a pass to Torreira. But who is marking Torreira? Only Wilfred "he'll steal the ball from you" Ndidi! What if Bellerin tries a round the corner pass to tr and reach Guendozi? Not only is that pass tricky to execute, but Tielemans would have time to close him down and challenge. What if Bellerin tries to switch the ball? Look where Ayoze Perez is standing to stop that option. This means that Bellerin decides to play the "safe" pass to David Luiz... but who is that lurking in the shadows behind him? Why it's only the man that would chase a brown paper bag in the wind Jamie Vardy!

 

 

A few seconds later, and Leicester have stolen the ball high up the field by applying their trap and it means we have a chance to score. Then note how slick our counter play is, Vardy unselfishly runs across goal to take one defender with him whilst Maddison and Tielemans push forwards to make an option or collect a rebound.

 

Here is the sequence in it's entirety:

 

 

I think that after Liverpool we are the next best pressing team in the league. Ndidi and Ricardo are monsters and even Tielemans and Maddison have proven very good at it. And having Jamie Vardy who sniffs defensive mistakes like a rabid bloodhound only improves it further. The reason Liverpool are better is that they have played the style for a longer time and their midfield 3 are higher energy players than ours. But they sacrifice creativity from those players, whereas in TIelemans and Maddison we have both a deep lying and an offensive play maker. Man City are also very good at the press, but tend to suffocate the opposition through denying them possession, something they are brilliant at doing.

 

Next time you are at the game, keep an eye out for what's happening off the ball. Honestly it's pretty incredible the way we play and you will notice a whole set of nuances to the team. Credit to the coaching team of course, who not only came up with it, but have manged to get their ideas across so well in such a short space of time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I always enjoy everything you post about tactics and performance, even if it's stuff that has already been talked about before - often you go into much more depth where others simply do not. You're the Most Valuable Poster in the Leicester City Forum by far imo.

[urban.spaceman]

38 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50446499

 

Apparently we’ve linked up with some Bulgarian second division team?

In fact this is practically the only thing I can find

 

 

[Paninistickers]

37 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

You are too kind!

One more thing that I don't think gets enough praise are the "pressing traps" that we set under Rodgers. Man City and Liverpool also use these, but they are extremely effective in our setup because of players like Ndidi and Ricardo.

 

 

I'm not 100% sure who came up with the concept (I believe it was a German coach, but not Klopp), but the idea and execution of pressing traps is IMO pure genius and has transformed modern football. It's all well and good chasing the ball high up the pitch, but it's impossible for anyone to chase the ball for 90 minutes, especially when the ball can be played around. The idea of pressing traps then is to press the opposition in such a way that they think they have a way to pass our of trouble... only to find that the other team have specifically setup expecting them to make that exact pass.

 

In the example above against Arsenal, you can see just how effective this is. Maddison presses Bellerin and notw how he is positioned. He's blocking the pass to Guendozi (29) but allowing him to try a pass to Torreira. But who is marking Torreira? Only Wilfred "he'll steal the ball from you" Ndidi! What if Bellerin tries a round the corner pass to tr and reach Guendozi? Not only is that pass tricky to execute, but Tielemans would have time to close him down and challenge. What if Bellerin tries to switch the ball? Look where Ayoze Perez is standing to stop that option. This means that Bellerin decides to play the "safe" pass to David Luiz... but who is that lurking in the shadows behind him? Why it's only the man that would chase a brown paper bag in the wind Jamie Vardy!

 

 

A few seconds later, and Leicester have stolen the ball high up the field by applying their trap and it means we have a chance to score. Then note how slick our counter play is, Vardy unselfishly runs across goal to take one defender with him whilst Maddison and Tielemans push forwards to make an option or collect a rebound.

 

Here is the sequence in it's entirety:

 

 

I think that after Liverpool we are the next best pressing team in the league. Ndidi and Ricardo are monsters and even Tielemans and Maddison have proven very good at it. And having Jamie Vardy who sniffs defensive mistakes like a rabid bloodhound only improves it further. The reason Liverpool are better is that they have played the style for a longer time and their midfield 3 are higher energy players than ours. But they sacrifice creativity from those players, whereas in TIelemans and Maddison we have both a deep lying and an offensive play maker. Man City are also very good at the press, but tend to suffocate the opposition through denying them possession, something they are brilliant at doing.

 

Next time you are at the game, keep an eye out for what's happening off the ball. Honestly it's pretty incredible the way we play and you will notice a whole set of nuances to the team. Credit to the coaching team of course, who not only came up with it, but have manged to get their ideas across so well in such a short space of time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great analysis. And as someone has already pointed out,more insight than the YouTube dude looking from outside in.

 

I wonder what the longevity of the press & trap is? All tactical systems have a shelf life as opposition coaches eventually develop counter measures. So traps to beat the trap!

 

I already think Man City aren't quite the force of the last two years as teams slowly develop an immunity and become conditioned. Salah isn't the force of 2 years ago either with Liverpool now becoming increasingly reliant on their superb full backs.

 

 

[H.a.r.r.y]

 

We're overrated now apparently

[foxes_rule1978]

16 minutes ago, H.a.r.r.y said:

 

We're overrated now apparently

When people start calling you overrated then that means we must be doing something right

[Dan LCFC]

That sequence of play - what the **** is David Luiz doing there? Rushes a pass out wide under no pressure. Luiz should just control the ball then turn forwards.

 

It's excellent play by us. I noticed it myself against Arsenal and it's why I'm totally in favour of keeping that same XI for as long as we can. Much as Gray's probably earned another start I don't think he could do what Perez is doing, not yet anyway.

[StriderHiryu]

14 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

Great analysis. And as someone has already pointed out,more insight than the YouTube dude looking from outside in.

 

I wonder what the longevity of the press & trap is? All tactical systems have a shelf life as opposition coaches eventually develop counter measures. So traps to beat the trap!

 

I already think Man City aren't quite the force of the last two years as teams slowly develop an immunity and become conditioned. Salah isn't the force of 2 years ago either with Liverpool now becoming increasingly reliant on their superb full backs.

 

 

That's a great question! I saw this video a while back which made the argument that innovation in football is getting stale and though certain nuances do keep developing (e.g. Sheffield United's overlapping centre backs), essentially we've reached a point where all tactics and structures are known and it's more about the execution of these ideas that determines who the best team is:

 

I'm not sure I believe that, but I do appreciate the point that is being made here. I think that the physical levels of footballers also play a huge part in modern teams, how long can a team play a high pressing style for before it wears them down? When Klopp left Dortmund in his final season they looked like they were completely spent from years of running around. Spurs this season look like a team who have gone one season too far playing the same brand of football and that's a team that has a relatively low average age. This can probably be fixed by having a deeper squad, but playing a high press is all about pressing as a team, so if you have to change over lots of players (like Spurs need to do), then you inevitably will go backwards a bit whilst that new set of players learns the system.

 

To beat pressing traps, you can do it one of two ways: play your way out, or play it long. We are blessed with a team that not only can set up a pressing trap, but they can play their way out of it too as all the players in the team are comfortable on the ball. This has led to numerous goal scoring opportunities throughout the season already. The other way is to be more direct and to play it long, but that usually means a 50/50 ball at best which is a big risk to take, though of course it can also be effective.

[LC/FC]

1 minute ago, StriderHiryu said:

That's a great question! I saw this video a while back which made the argument that innovation in football is getting stale and though certain nuances do keep developing (e.g. Sheffield United's overlapping centre backs), essentially we've reached a point where all tactics and structures are known and it's more about the execution of these ideas that determines who the best team is:

 

I'm not sure I believe that, but I do appreciate the point that is being made here. I think that the physical levels of footballers also play a huge part in modern teams, how long can a team play a high pressing style for before it wears them down? When Klopp left Dortmund in his final season they looked like they were completely spent from years of running around. Spurs this season look like a team who have gone one season too far playing the same brand of football and that's a team that has a relatively low average age. This can probably be fixed by having a deeper squad, but playing a high press is all about pressing as a team, so if you have to change over lots of players (like Spurs need to do), then you inevitably will go backwards a bit whilst that new set of players learns the system.

 

To beat pressing traps, you can do it one of two ways: play your way out, or play it long. We are blessed with a team that not only can set up a pressing trap, but they can play their way out of it too as all the players in the team are comfortable on the ball. This has led to numerous goal scoring opportunities throughout the season already. The other way is to be more direct and to play it long, but that usually means a 50/50 ball at best which is a big risk to take, though of course it can also be effective.

Striderman. Striderman. Tactically analyses like noone can.

[ian_marshall]

8 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

That sequence of play - what the **** is David Luiz doing there? Rushes a pass out wide under no pressure. Luiz should just control the ball then turn forwards.

 

It's excellent play by us. I noticed it myself against Arsenal and it's why I'm totally in favour of keeping that same XI for as long as we can. Much as Gray's probably earned another start I don't think he could do what Perez is doing, not yet anyway.

That's my thoughts too. Yes, we execute a good press but there's so many errors leading up to the change in possession. 

 

Firstly, Luiz should let the ball run across his body and run into the space which gives him time to make a good passing decision and draws us out of our shape. 

 

Secondly, that ball to Bellerin is horrendous. Absolute hospital pass. 

 

Thirdly, if Bellerin doesn't take the touch and plays it first time he doesn't need to rush the pass. If he absolutely must take a touch (as he did) and is bring pressed (as he was) he needs to play the ball into a safe zone, either down the line or diagonal forward punt with his left foot. 

 

Arsenal’s decision making and lack of technical ability in that scenario is certainly not of the standard that you'd expect from a team of their stature in my opinion. 

[Out Foxed]

On 16/11/2019 at 14:01, turtmcfly said:

Enjoyed this - thanks.

 

Wondering where I can get one of those pens.

Hopefully not the same place he got his mic from

[don_danbury]

17 hours ago, H.a.r.r.y said:

 

We're overrated now apparently

who in the blue hell is that?

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, ian_marshall said:

That's my thoughts too. Yes, we execute a good press but there's so many errors leading up to the change in possession. 

 

Firstly, Luiz should let the ball run across his body and run into the space which gives him time to make a good passing decision and draws us out of our shape. 

 

Secondly, that ball to Bellerin is horrendous. Absolute hospital pass. 

 

Thirdly, if Bellerin doesn't take the touch and plays it first time he doesn't need to rush the pass. If he absolutely must take a touch (as he did) and is bring pressed (as he was) he needs to play the ball into a safe zone, either down the line or diagonal forward punt with his left foot. 

 

Arsenal’s decision making and lack of technical ability in that scenario is certainly not of the standard that you'd expect from a team of their stature in my opinion. 

How absurd is it that we live in a world where Leicester are the highly technical team able to play out from the back comfortably, and knock it around midfield with aplomb, and Arsenal are the ones that play like a bombscare?! This is the same team that signed a player for 72m in the summer, as well as brought in a technical midfielder from Real Madrid and have a German World Cup winning midfielder on 300k a week on their books.

 

The way our club has been run is absolute first class!

[urban.spaceman]

What could have been, if Everton weren't incompetent. 

[urban.spaceman]

https://twitter.com/evertonnewsfeed/status/1196370585653252096?s=21

[urban.spaceman]

https://twitter.com/evertonnewsfeed/status/1196370585653252096?s=21