Also in the news

[David Guiza]

1 hour ago, FIF said:

Isn't it a shame that the people you want in don't know what their doing or how to get voters on their side. 

 

Sometimes the leader you need in a particular situation is not the leader you want.

 

As regards the milkshake throwing, I'm surprised so many of you are for it or at least not condemning it. It's wrong. Simples.

There's no doubting that he's a great politician, much better than many on both sides of the two main parties. Shame about some of his views and arrogance though. 

 

As for a leader - I genuinely don't know who the leader I want is at this current time, it's certainly not May, Corbyn or Farage though. 

 

I think the vast majority know it's wrong and sets a dangerous precedent to condone that sort of thing. There is a huge difference between laughing at a prat covered in milkshake and actively encouraging it though. Similar to laughing at somebody falling over and pushing said person I guess. His reaction has also been wrong. Saying that remainers have been radicalised is quite the accusation when some MPs have been murdered and faced plots for their killings. Radicalised is a strong word and he had time to think about whether or not to use it, and the worst thing is that people will back him up on that claim. 

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Because the "alt-right" isn't an organization per se. It's a way of thinking at best, an ideology at worst. Otherwise, one needs proof to back up such unsubstantiated claims.

Antifa, on the other hand, does exist as an organization, albeit a loose one, coming together in masses to impose their worldview onto others, gearing up, hiding behind balaclavas and masks, intimidating and trying to silence free speech in the process, going as far as doxing and vehemently attacking people, many of them innocent bystanders.

 

Anyone who is now right of the Left today is too easily labeled "racist", "alt-right", "Nazi", "woman hater" just for having a different opinion.

This is a sort of libel. Throwing around these terms only helps diluting them. And once you're up against a real "Nazi" or "racist", it's probably already too late.

 

People who are or were in parts sympathetic with some of the leftist causes are put off by this purge, then head in the one direction they can still go - to the right, where they feel accepted. This is fatal.

 

As for the US, there's been a graph of late showing how far both sides in the US have drifted apart, the Democrats in particular:

We've gone through this dance before: I gave you proof, you denied it to be so and insisted on a higher standard of proof than can be realistically attained (which is hugely hypocritical when the burden of proof you apply for the existence of left-wing extremist organisation to be much lower).

 

I don't care to rehash that here as there are much more productive uses of time, I was pointing out to Carl the nature of the discussion, I'm done with that and I'm sure he can continue as he likes from here.

[MC Prussian]

32 minutes ago, FIF said:

When some people don't think.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348431

 

Well, one of Squash Oviedo's president is a woman - so I have slightly harder time to believe the present was made as a remark about the winner's sex:

https://www.elespanol.com/deportes/otros-deportes/20190520/squash-oviedo-disculpa-regalo-vibrador-campeonato-asturias/399961174_0.html

 

Is it inappropriate given the occasion? Sure. Dumb? Definitely.

 

The BBC article also doesn't say who bought/organized the gifts in the first place. That'd be interesting to know. Who is the real culprit here...

[MC Prussian]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

We've gone through this dance before: I gave you proof, you denied it to be so and insisted on a higher standard of proof than can be realistically attained (which is hugely hypocritical when the burden of proof you apply for the existence of left-wing extremist organisation to be much lower).

 

I don't care to rehash that here as there are much more productive uses of time, I was pointing out to Carl the nature of the discussion, I'm done with that and I'm sure he can continue as he likes from here.

"Alt-right" is a school of thought, a collective term that encompasses a variety of particular groups and/or organizations who are on the (more or less) extreme right side of the political spectrum, it is, however, not an organization in itself, which you claim it to be.

 

Quote

Alt Right is short for “alternative right."  This vague term actually encompasses a range of people on the extreme right who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of forms of conservatism that embrace implicit or explicit racism or white supremacy.

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/alt-right-a-primer-about-the-new-white-supremacy

 

Quote

....you're talking to someone who doesn't believe the alt-right exists as an organization...

I don't see how you still manage to make this attribution mistake. That's a flat-out conspiracy theory on your behalf.

 

Also speaks volumes that you opt out of the debate so easily, which is a shame.

[urban.spaceman]

50 minutes ago, FIF said:

When some people don't think.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348431

 

Reminded me of this:

 

 

 

I ****ing love Africa.

[Milo]

Jamie Olivers restaurants gone bust...

 

Blames Brexit and the increase of the minimum wage as the reasons

 

 

Nothing to do with serving bang average, overpriced food, then. 

[MC Prussian]

6 minutes ago, Milo said:

Jamie Olivers restaurants gone bust...

 

Blames Brexit and the increase of the minimum wage as the reasons

 

 

Nothing to do with serving bang average, overpriced food, then. 

... and expanding too fast. Cost control, cost control...

[bovril]

7 minutes ago, Milo said:

Jamie Olivers restaurants gone bust...

 

Blames Brexit and the increase of the minimum wage as the reasons

 

 

Nothing to do with serving bang average, overpriced food, then. 

Tbf I have a feeling Brexit is going to be blamed for most things, from Jamie's Italian going bust to Leicester City never winning the FA Cup.

[Buce]

22 minutes ago, bovril said:

Tbf I have a feeling Brexit is going to be blamed for most things, from Jamie's Italian going bust to Leicester City never winning the FA Cup.

 

That's the spirit.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

That's the spirit.

It was a ref. to that Rutland TV sketch. Obviously we're going to win it way before Brexit is ever sorted.

Edited 21 May 2019 by bovril

[Carl the Llama]

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

There's loads to unpack here, and I'm trying to boil it down to the most interesting aspects.

 

First of all, pretty early on, Benjamin clearly states how he despises the far-right and/or right-wing extremists. That should be pretty clear, because that is his belief and he hasn't changed in that regard. So, people on the left should embrace him for that condemnation. Also, pretty early on, he calls the left "regressive", not "oppressive" - so we'd need more proof he shares that sentiment on a constant basis. Labeling the reacting faction "regressive" is a pretty fair assessment. One on the Left should be smarter than that.

And that's a long comment so I'll take it bit by bit.

 

Firstly allow me to congratulate Carl Benjamin on clearing that very high bar of saying he despises extremists.

 

Now ok so he doesn't specifically used the term "oppressive" in that video but if you spend a few months regularly watching his videos you'll see it's a common theme that he thinks the left in general try to control what we say and do.

 

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

What Benjamin does is putting the Charlottesville event into context, with the main reasoning being that if you start reacting to it (right-wing extremism), then you make either completely credible or at least partially, you start giving it meaning. One can argue that if there hadn't been a counter-protest, none of the violence would've happened, no people injured, no deaths, no retard driving his car into the crowd. The longer the clashes went on, the more the right-wing protestors saw their existence/their presence legitimized.

The violence probably wouldn't have happened if there weren't counter protesters, you're right.  You know what else would have prevented the violence and the murder?  If the alt-right activists had decided not to engage in physical violence and if that kid chose not to ram his car into a crowd of people.  These people aren't legitimised when they're protested against, they're legitimised when people like you justify their actions to defend your cause.

 

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Freedom of Speech applies to all people and groups in the US, you can't just pick and choose (if you're on the left).

Freedom of speech exists but not freedom from the consequences of any utter garbage you choose to spout.

 

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

I think I've seen much more ludicrous attempts on the (extreme) Left to shut down debate and people on the right or merely to the right of the Left, than the other way around.

Also worth noting that the US or Americans have a different understanding of Freedom of Speech or at least it's handled different over there as opposed to the UK, for instance.

Some of what I read in the news about law enforcement in the UK against people to the right of the Left is concerning to say the least.

If you're talking about the trend of de-platforming people then I'm on record condemning this kind of thing pretty much every time a new story pops up, I can't stand it.  I'm genuinely curious about the last sentence here though, do you have any sources for what I think you're implying?

 

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

This unbelievable attempt at censorship does my head in - in what world do they want to live in? A Communist state where everything you say or do is controlled by the authorities, à là German Democratic Republic? That worked out well.

I guess a teeny tiny handful of people very far to the left might like that idea but obviously no sane person does, what are you trying to prove here?

 

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

The question is - what is the way forward? If we've learnt anything from history, censorship can't be the way forward, because it emboldens radicals (on both sides). Social Media outrage via Twitter does nothing to resolve the issue, it's merely and mainly self-absorbed claptrap of so-called "do-gooders".

What censorship? Who's censored you? What social media outrage?  You're throwing out a lot of random thoughts with no attachment to any specific event or sources, how can I fairly address any of that?

 

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

With regards to the Charlottesville incident, Benjamin criticizes the local police and law enforcement, as well as the city council for dealing with the issue so poorly. Also the media for its rather one-sided approach to reporting, and the misleading headlines. These days, the coverage is all somewhat one-sided in its weighing of left and right extremism.

For instance, lots of talk about the AfD in Germany being a threat to society, yet little talk of how the German Green Party is affiliating itself with Antifa.

If the coverage of left and right extremism at the event is unbalanced it's because there were significantly more far right extremists at an event organised by and for far right extremists than antifa members in the crowd of protesters who were largely people who lived in or near the town.  If the German Green Party are associating with antifa then I sincerely hope nobody votes for them.

 

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

I think part of it is certainly down to it being a rather US-specific thing, with two extreme sides colliding, not just in political terms. There's a distinct lack of discourse and nuance.

I'm not even sure it's a left vs. right issue, more so a case of dumb vs. dumb.

I can't see Benjamin making any excuses for the far-right movement, he condemns them for their existence and their stupid set of ideas, but also criticizes the left for its false way of reacting to it. As long as the answer to extreme views is no rhetorical challenge, only physical presence (the counter-protestors outnumbered the original protesters by at least a factor of two) and shouting insults, plus the attempt to dox right-wingers, nothing will change. The wheel continues to turn, an endless cacophony of extremist rhetoric on both sides. Both sides thrive on getting a reaction out of each other, so why not simply ignoring them and/or use the police to arrest anyone who breaks the law by either attacking, injuring or killing people or damaging or vandalizing property?

You can't see him making any excuses for them?  His whole spiel is "look what you made happen, leftists".  If shouting insults is the worst thing a protester does then that's a bit of a win, surely?  Doxing has been committed by people all over the shop, it's wrong, it's a crime, it's not something any serious political figure would ever get involved with.  Explains why somebody like man of the people Tommy Robinson would do it though.

 

Unfortunately it always comes down to this hand wringing "woe is us, what are we to do" rhetoric.  How about stop only seriously condemning violent thugs on one side of the political divide if you seriously don't have any truck with them?  How about stop legitimising extremist violence by saying "look what you guys made happen"?  Can't remember ever seeing a video of antifa attacking a peaceful gathering and thinking "it's a shame that public speaking event made those guys so angry" yet that's what you're saying. I once though right-wingers were keen on personal responsibility.

 

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Towards the end, he raises the issue of selective racism. Is racism only to be called out for if it's aimed at black people, Asians and other minorities? Shouldn't we be consequential and apply it to all situations, no matter where the racist person comes from? Why is it okay to shout obscenities at white people because they are white?

Main point here is that Benjamin wants you to see through that Leftist argumentation in terms of collectivism and intersexuality, that minorities to them are merely a pawn in the chess game of identity politics.

Who says it's acceptable to shout obscenities at white people because they are white?  I get Benjamin's point but it's a conspiracy theory or at worst a handful of people made out to represent an entire demographic.  This is how he works, magnify an issue to get people more scared of it just like good old mainstream media.

 

22 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

The irony of it all - remember Sally Boynton Brown who makes an appearance at the end of the video? The white woman telling white people to "shut up"?

Turns out she was complicit in sexual harrassment at work:

http://sunshinestatenews.com/story/fdp-president-sally-boynton-brown-resigns

Speaking out against something, only to tolerate it in real life. The hypocrisy gets me.

She hardly seems to have it all together in the video so I can't say I'm all that surprised.

[The Guvnor]

21 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Honestly don't have a problem with milkshaking a guy, it's ultimately harmless (unless Farage is lactose intolerant?), though I do feel that in the interest of fairness they should make sure that both parties are equipped with a milkshake before hostilities commence otherwise one side has a significant technological advantage.

 

That said I do get the voices saying any altercation is an altercation too far but let's show a bit more respect and stop pretending it's in remotely the same ballpark as murder.

Firstly throwing any liquid at anyone is pretty fukcing stupid thing to do in light of all the recent acid attacks.

I Hope the twat has to pay for a new suit for Nigel, that will wipe the smile off his face.

[Guest]

Can Carl and MC perhaps start a new thread about Carl Benjamin so that this thread isn't diluted?

[Carl the Llama]

13 minutes ago, FIF said:

Can Carl and MC perhaps start a new thread about Carl Benjamin so that this thread isn't diluted?

I'd prefer to stop discussing him altogether personally  

[The Horse's Mouth]

1 hour ago, Milo said:

Jamie Olivers restaurants gone bust...

 

Blames Brexit and the increase of the minimum wage as the reasons

 

 

Nothing to do with serving bang average, overpriced food, then. 

 

[The Horse's Mouth]

14 minutes ago, FIF said:

Can Carl and MC perhaps start a new thread about Carl Benjamin so that this thread isn't diluted?

christ we cant have some thread about some fat flobby youtuber who's a disabled

[Carl the Llama]

20 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

Firstly throwing any liquid at anyone is pretty fukcing stupid thing to do in light of all the recent acid attacks.

I Hope the twat has to pay for a new suit for Nigel, that will wipe the smile off his face.

Worth it tbh. 

 

Besides, if it was an acid attack it would have been dealt with accordingly, not relevant.

[Carl the Llama]

7 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

christ we cant have some thread about some fat flobby youtuber who's a disabled

I'd appreciate if you edited this to something a bit less dense, you're not exactly helping.

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Milo said:

Jamie Olivers restaurants gone bust...

 

Blames Brexit and the increase of the minimum wage as the reasons

 

 

Nothing to do with serving bang average, overpriced food, then. 

Surely now everyone can see some positives to brexit, piss off jamie you slobbering moron.

[Buce]

 

Every time I see Farage's smug face, I'm reminded of a Fools and Horses episode:

 

Del: "...reminds me of Cliff Richards"

Mike: "What, he looks younger than his years?"

Del: "No, he’s got one of those faces that you wanna slap"

[MC Prussian]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

I'd prefer to stop discussing him altogether personally  

It's ok.

 

I'd say this forum can be used to debate on that level, but I'm not sure it should be on a practical level - it becomes a bit tedious or overwhelming. All that writing...

 

[RoboFox]

3 hours ago, Milo said:

Jamie Olivers restaurants gone bust...

 

Blames Brexit and the increase of the minimum wage as the reasons

 

 

Nothing to do with serving bang average, overpriced food, then. 

 

You could say Jamie's Italian has gone into...

 

(•_•)

( •_•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■)

 

Adminestrone.

 

(p.s. people losing their jobs f**king sucks...)

 

Edited 21 May 2019 by RoboFox

[Buce]

8 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

 

You could say Jamie's Italian has gone into...

 

(•_•)

( •_•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■)

 

Adminestrone.

 

(p.s. people losing their jobs f**king sucks...)

 

 

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

Jamie Oliver's restaurants go into adminestrone

 

[Milo]

1 hour ago, RoboFox said:

 

You could say Jamie's Italian has gone into...

 

(•_•)

( •_•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■)

 

Adminestrone.

 

(p.s. people losing their jobs f**king sucks...)

 

It's pasta joke

[bovril]

14 minutes ago, Milo said:

It's pasta joke

It's quite sad actually. I bet he's feeling cannelloni right now.