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DJ Barry Hammond

The VAR thread

What are your thoughts on VAR?  

679 members have voted

  1. 1. What are your thoughts on VAR?

    • Love it, all for it, fantastic introduction to football
      109
    • Hate it, games gone
      236
    • Somewhere in between
      334

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  • Poll closed on 17/05/20 at 19:00

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Yet more examples tonight of how much VAR is absolutely ruining the game of football. 
 

2 decisions both taking almost 5 minutes to reverse and both very dubious decisions.

 

The lack of consistency in decisions is also an absolute complete and utter joke

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4 hours ago, Yes said:

I know a lot of people don’t like the conspiracy shouts but at this point what are you supposed to think? 
 

Us, Wolves and Sheffield United must’ve had the worst “luck” of anyone in the league, all of which just happen to be the biggest threat to the top 4 this season, meanwhile Manchester United have won 11 penalties and conceded just 1 (we’ve conceded 9 the most in the league). Just dodgy. 

 

so in summary, we come out at worst break even in terms of luck. Doesn't suit the narrative though

 

we only remember the extreme bad luck we never remember slight bumps of good fortune we might encounter

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19 minutes ago, Dave Fishwick said:

 

so in summary, we come out at worst break even in terms of luck. Doesn't suit the narrative though

 

we only remember the extreme bad luck we never remember slight bumps of good fortune we might encounter

Would be interesting to know what teams we played where VAR worked for us and what teams VAR did not go our way or even used. Personally I thought VAR would be good but after how poor it's been over all I for one dont ever wanna see it again

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4 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Offsides and attacking handballs are easy to rule out and where we've had our decisions.

 

Yet the 50/50 ones which could go either way all seem to have gone against us.

 

So in essence those stats tell us nothing about the reality of the situation.

Wood’s ‘trip’ on Evans was very subjective imo ....that earned us two points ....  of all the 50/50 have gone against us. Would like to go through the 13 (now 14) var calls and see what we actually think.  Of course, many of the handballs we didn’t get aren’t actually documented as being var calls because the game wasn’t stopped and 23 replays analysed .....one would also have to look at how many handball calls there were against us not given. 

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Guest ttfn
6 hours ago, Dave Fishwick said:

 

so in summary, we come out at worst break even in terms of luck. Doesn't suit the narrative though

 

we only remember the extreme bad luck we never remember slight bumps of good fortune we might encounter

This table misses the point.

 

The table picks up VAR overturns, where teams benefit from the existence of VAR in overturning a referee’s decision - something which obviously wouldn’t have happened in previous seasons.

 

People’s frustrations with VAR, by and large, are not principally about the decisions that it does overturn but the rarity and inconsistency with which it intervenes. People aren’t hacked off with Ndidi’s handball in isolation today, they’re hacked off that VAR saw fit to intervene there but not at Villa Park or Turf Moor or Anfield. That it chose to intervene for Man City but not against in our home game. 

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It seems to be a lottery as to what will actually be reviewed- if every handball was reviewed then at least you could analyse it but they seem to pick and choose which ones they want to go over again.

 

With the offsides, for however marginal and miniscule, they have been checking every goal. With handballs, you're waiting to see if the video ref can be bothered.

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8 hours ago, Dave Fishwick said:

 

so in summary, we come out at worst break even in terms of luck. Doesn't suit the narrative though

 

we only remember the extreme bad luck we never remember slight bumps of good fortune we might encounter

We've had decisions like Wolves x 2 and Everton go our way but there is just too much gone against us now.

 

Since Christmas we've had

Burnley

Villa

Chelsea

Norwich

Man City x 2

Brighton x 2

Everton x 2

 

Thats 10 big calls that have gone against us and no doubt there will 3 or 4 more at least before the end of the season.

 

Edited by Blue ROI
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1 hour ago, ttfn said:

People’s frustrations with VAR, by and large, are not principally about the decisions that it does overturn but the rarity and inconsistency with which it intervenes. People aren’t hacked off with Ndidi’s handball in isolation today, they’re hacked off that VAR saw fit to intervene there but not at Villa Park or Turf Moor or Anfield. That it chose to intervene for Man City but not against in our home game. 

The pure inconsistency is the real killer, and then there being no justification as to why the decisions are given or not. We're just made to accept it. 

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Normally managers with balls will tell the press why they think the decisions are bad, have a moan or whatever, they get themselves banned from the touchline, but it may make the officials rethink whats going on, so can end a bad run of decisions.

 

Yet Rodgers has been very passive, he needs to speak out on it, even if he is fined or banned for a game or two.

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7 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

The problem is not all of them are clear cut - getting one overturned in your favour isn't 'luck' if it was clearly wrong in the first place.

 

It's the inconsistencies. Look at the handballs given and not given in our games this year. Conveniently the most dubious rule of the lot that is reliant on interpretation of the officials, aka the easiest to bend in favour of the team you want to help out - the odds of that many in a row going against us must be in the high thousands.

 

I'm not using it to excuse the shite football we're serving up, we have plenty of issues of our own, but we are without a shadow of a doubt being screwed over.


This season has been largely awful to be honest. The mix of the blatant corruption, VAR and behind closed doors (I appreciate the latter is unavoidable) has actually made this one of the shittest seasons I can remember to be honest, as a collective.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

I used to shy away from the idea that the league could be so corrupt but I’m running out of alternative explanations after last night.

 

As soon as the check went on for more than a few seconds, you just knew that they were looking for a way to give it and it made my stomach turn. The rules, though somewhat vague, seem easy enough for the fans to follow, yet a cabal of supposedly highly trained referees on the pitch and another set off it can’t produce consistent decisions even within a 90 minute period. 
 

To begin with, what is the “clear and obvious” rule supposed to be doing? If it takes that long to make a call then it probably wasn’t “clear and obvious”. Of course, this rule wasn’t designed to actually achieve fairness, but rather to introduce ambiguity so that ref’s could swing games in a totally subjective manner. I don’t really mind the incident yesterday being called as a handball (even if it was incredibly harsh) but if that’s the case then surely Coleman’s is a handball as well and we can also feel aggrieved about many other decisions both since the restart and prior to it. 
 

Looking the other way, the league seem so desperate to get some of the big boys back into the champions league. In any Man U game I watch, it’s like the ref can’t blow fast enough for a penalty. I’m sure I see them bringing the whistle closer to their lips as soon as someone strays towards the penalty area. They are absolutely itching to give them anything. I also thought that West Ham were done harshly by the disallowed goal. The analysis they had to do to get the result they wanted was ridiculous (not so clear and obvious) and it wasn’t like they were correcting for any kind of meaningful foul where West Ham gained an unfair advantage. 
 

I still think the premise behind VAR is great but it’s just a shame that we can’t say the same of the officials.

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8 hours ago, Dave Fishwick said:

 

so in summary, we come out at worst break even in terms of luck. Doesn't suit the narrative though

 

we only remember the extreme bad luck we never remember slight bumps of good fortune we might encounter

The problem is these are season long stats, the problem has been evident since the new year only, the FA have been clever by waiting half a season so people looking at season long stats dont see the problem.

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8 hours ago, Dave Fishwick said:

 

so in summary, we come out at worst break even in terms of luck. Doesn't suit the narrative though

 

we only remember the extreme bad luck we never remember slight bumps of good fortune we might encounter

Taken in isolation though, these stats don’t really tell us much at all.

 

Really what you need to look at is how many have been given for/against us PLUS how many “clear and obvious” decisions you didn’t or did get, I.e where VAR should have intervened either for or against you. 
 

If we draw a line under Wilf’s handball yesterday which... was fairly inconsequential to the outcome of the play, unintentional, natural and perhaps caused by an Keane jumping into him, then how many other penalties should we have been awarded this season? I can think of at least two just in the past week! Add this to the fact that we concede soft penalties against teams like Man U or Liverpool where VAR would likely overturn the decisions if the roles were reversed and you will get closer to the real number.

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12 minutes ago, oadby.fox said:

Couldn’t agree more.

 

I used to shy away from the idea that the league could be so corrupt but I’m running out of alternative explanations after last night.

 

As soon as the check went on for more than a few seconds, you just knew that they were looking for a way to give it and it made my stomach turn. The rules, though somewhat vague, seem easy enough for the fans to follow, yet a cabal of supposedly highly trained referees on the pitch and another set off it can’t produce consistent decisions even within a 90 minute period. 
 

To begin with, what is the “clear and obvious” rule supposed to be doing? If it takes that long to make a call then it probably wasn’t “clear and obvious”. Of course, this rule wasn’t designed to actually achieve fairness, but rather to introduce ambiguity so that ref’s could swing games in a totally subjective manner. I don’t really mind the incident yesterday being called as a handball (even if it was incredibly harsh) but if that’s the case then surely Coleman’s is a handball as well and we can also feel aggrieved about many other decisions both since the restart and prior to it. 
 

Looking the other way, the league seem so desperate to get some of the big boys back into the champions league. In any Man U game I watch, it’s like the ref can’t blow fast enough for a penalty. I’m sure I see them bringing the whistle closer to their lips as soon as someone strays towards the penalty area. They are absolutely itching to give them anything. I also thought that West Ham were done harshly by the disallowed goal. The analysis they had to do to get the result they wanted was ridiculous (not so clear and obvious) and it wasn’t like they were correcting for any kind of meaningful foul where West Ham gained an unfair advantage. 
 

I still think the premise behind VAR is great but it’s just a shame that we can’t say the same of the officials.

Sadly anything that has humans deciding things is vulnerable to emotions and corruption, VAR needs some clear guidelines adding and a change of personnel.

 

1 - If a decision cannot be made in 30 seconds, its not clear and obvious, go with ref's decision.

2 - If a line needs to be drawn, its not clear and obvious, go with ref's decision.

3 - Officials from over seas or an independent entity should man VAR.

4 - Each decision with justification needs to be posted on a public website.  It can be open to scrutiny with panels setup to deal with complaints.

 

The problem comes about what happens when a decision has been decided its a bad one post game, it can bring the game into a messy situation, do you replay the match, remove goals, add goals, void the result?  Not a good scenario, but the problem with what we have now is that there is no accountability, and too easy to have corruption.  In other sports with this level of money involved there is corruption, on the law of averages, the EPL been clean doesnt make sense.  I think the answer is to keep results as they are, they are final, but to make referees able to be disciplined, so either demoted or fired, once a ref realises his job is on the line he will think twice about decisions.

 

I also still remember our title winning season where we kept getting favourable decisions for a run of games (mostly against bottom half teams) as if the establishment decided it would be a good thing for us to win it.  Then for a couple of seasons after that we usually got decisions against bottom half teams but reversed against the big 4.  It was consistent enough to pick up on it.  I agree with the claims of corruption.

Edited by Chrysalis
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Last nights overturn was a classic example of ‘re refereeing’ the game 

 

something IFAB say should not happen with VAR. 
 

if the ref gives it then it stands .... if the ref doesn’t give it then it stays not given. They set the bar high for overturns and have subsequently been hugely inconsistent with them ....

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Seeing so many opposition handball calls go in favour of them and then seeing Ndidi's given yesterday just infuriates me. I do think Ndidi's is handball but by the same rules/guidelines, how is Dunk's not given? 

 

It's the same point raised all season - the inconsistencies generated from each refs human perspective let's the function and concept of VAR down. How does one ref not give the Dunk handball but another gives the Ndidi one? 

 

Where we have favoured earlier on in the season with VAR (even if it was offsides correctly called eventually, they wouldn't have been without VAR) we've greatly suffered in several games this 2nd half of the season (Villa in the cup especially). 

 

I don't want to paper over the glaring cracks of our own performances as no one needs telling they've been utter rubbish for the most part, but it's still a problem and talking point that shouldn't be ignored. 

 

Do PGMOL constantly review VAR usage after each game/round of games? Or even at the end of the season? Do they actively look to see how the system and usage can be improved/human error can be reduced? 

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53 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Seeing so many opposition handball calls go in favour of them and then seeing Ndidi's given yesterday just infuriates me. I do think Ndidi's is handball but by the same rules/guidelines, how is Dunk's not given? 

 

It's the same point raised all season - the inconsistencies generated from each refs human perspective let's the function and concept of VAR down. How does one ref not give the Dunk handball but another gives the Ndidi one? 

 

Where we have favoured earlier on in the season with VAR (even if it was offsides correctly called eventually, they wouldn't have been without VAR) we've greatly suffered in several games this 2nd half of the season (Villa in the cup especially). 

 

I don't want to paper over the glaring cracks of our own performances as no one needs telling they've been utter rubbish for the most part, but it's still a problem and talking point that shouldn't be ignored. 

 

Do PGMOL constantly review VAR usage after each game/round of games? Or even at the end of the season? Do they actively look to see how the system and usage can be improved/human error can be reduced? 

Yes. They review their bank account to see if the Man Utd cheque has cleared, then they phone Ed Woodward and ask him if they had enough free goals, and was he happy with how many penalties were given against Leicester, or would he like some extra red cards for the next set of matches?

 

To not be so flippant, the biggest problem with VAR is that it gives the worst refs, like Craig Pawson, a chance to ruin many more matches than in a normal season. My number one recommendation to improve the whole system would be to build a wicker man, then lob Pawson, Chris Kavanagh, Jon Moss and all the other "Ooh look at me, I'm making game making decisions" refs into it. Coote wasn't too bad yesterday, if Pawson hadn't been involved in any way shape or form we'd have been alright

Edited by orangecity23
Wicker man
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Still convinced they reviewed the wrong incident for the Nakamba incident. How could you watch that and not come to the conclusion it’s handball?

 

The Man City home game was the most glaringly abysmal use of it. Praet gets the ball blasted at him, it hits his arms, fair enough it’s probably a penalty. Then in the same game De Bruyne about ****ing catches the ball from a free kick and it isn’t given - 100% that’s getting given agsinst us if that was the other way around.

 

The Dunk and Mee incidents weren’t even reviewed were they? lol 

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10 hours ago, Dave Fishwick said:

 

so in summary, we come out at worst break even in terms of luck. Doesn't suit the narrative though

 

we only remember the extreme bad luck we never remember slight bumps of good fortune we might encounter

If you only look at that stat (which shows nothing) and think it actually means something, man United are clearly cheating.

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10 hours ago, Dave Fishwick said:

 

so in summary, we come out at worst break even in terms of luck. Doesn't suit the narrative though

 

we only remember the extreme bad luck we never remember slight bumps of good fortune we might encounter

I don’t know what that includes but I know it won’t include the handballs that should’ve been for us, most in our favour were just offsides which have been being given all season that was never the complaint, it’s the 50/50s that we never get and since around Christmas we’ve been shafted a number of times. 

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Like I've said all along, it's still a human decision. Not a computer. 

Craig Pawson is the shittest ref in the league so why would putting him on VAR duty make him better? Same applies to Mason, he's a shit ref too. I know most are bad but these two are the worse.

 

When a decision takes so long to review then its not "clear and obvious" is it. In fact it's the opposite of what VAR was bought in for.

 

Refs, VAR or not, will always favour big team. De Brunye dare not get hit by the ball so he puts his hands there and it's no pen. If you can't take a ball in the face then don't stand in the wall ffs! If we, or Burnley or Sheffield United or any other team outside the traditional top 4 go to the Etihad and do the same then a penalty is given to Man City. I don't know how managers keep their cool.

Edited by Fox92
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