The VAR thread

[justfoxes]

A Hit and miss system depending on who is in the box it could be a great help but no one seems to know what the rules are and it would help if the refs used the pitch sided monitors instead of just listening to often an idiot in a room at Stockley Park, how can 1 game a handball is given and takes more than 3 minutes to decide even tho there was a deliberate foul on Souyuncu I front of the ref and then with other teams blatant handballs (KDB) are waved away makes you think really and I know I’ll get shot down but it just depends on who is actually handballing in a game and who isn’t ( conspiracy you decide ?)

[Dave Fishwick]

8 hours ago, StanSP said:

 

 

Where we have favoured earlier on in the season with VAR (even if it was offsides correctly called eventually, they wouldn't have been without VAR) we've greatly suffered in several games this 2nd half of the season (Villa in the cup especially). 

 

 

so its just variance evening it out then?

[StanSP]

11 minutes ago, Dave Fishwick said:

so its just variance evening it out then?

No it just highlights the inconsistencies of it all in my opinion.

[Izzy]

That disallowed Spurs goal - wow.

 

I know it’s Spurs but put on your impartial hat for a second and that’s an absolute shocking decision.

[UniFox21]

8 minutes ago, Izzy said:

That disallowed Spurs goal - wow.

 

I know it’s Spurs but put on your impartial hat for a second and that’s an absolute shocking decision.

It's just laughable at this point. Defenders now actively try to knock the ball onto an attacking arm knowing any goal would be ruled out. 

[Super_horns]

It will be like hockey when an attacker deliberately shoots to ensure the ball hits the opponent's foot.

 

Edited 2 July 2020 by Super_horns

[Dan]

Haha the league is just laughable at this point. You really cannot believe how big a shambles it's been. Really am just bored of what this league's turned into to be honest it's turning more like WWE every year.

[StanSP]

6 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

Haha the league is just laughable at this point. You really cannot believe how big a shambles it's been. Really am just bored of what this league's turned into to be honest it's turning more like WWE every year.

WWE? 

 

How? 

[st albans fox]

11 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

It's just laughable at this point. Defenders now actively try to knock the ball onto an attacking arm knowing any goal would be ruled out. 

Point made v early on this season when the new law started to affect decent goals being chalked off .....

 

the issue is that a goal cannot be scored by the arm ..... then they decided that a goal cannot be created by contact with the arm ..... I can’t disagree with that but there is an almost infinite number of ways that plays out and as such, impossible to make allowances for them so they decided to make no allowances at all. Hence the nonsense we see.  I think the law will be changed to become any contact with the arm which directs the ball into the goal (and is a notable deflection of the original path of the ball) plus any immediate assist to a goal where the attackers arm was not in a natural position. 
 

I would just leave it to the on field ref to make the call, having checked the monitor if alerted by the VAR.  

 

it still provides for plenty of situations where a goal will be allowed and many of us will feel that it shouldn’t ........and vica Versa but the current law is ridiculous....

[ozleicester]

You can NOT take opinion and interpretation out of the game.

VAR is a time wasting pile of sh1te.

Leave goal line technology in place and get rid of VAR... back to games being played instead of stopped. Errors will be made either way.

[Guest worth_the_wait]

19 hours ago, Fox92 said:

When a decision takes so long to review then its not "clear and obvious" is it. In fact it's the opposite of what VAR was bought in for.

 

Exactly.   This proves that much of what underpins VAR is a blatant lie.  

 

How can anything that takes 2-3 minutes to decide, be "clear and obvious" ?   

Once you've replayed it 2 or 3 times .. if it's not obvious, IT'S NOT OBVIOUS.   Replaying it 20 or 30 times, doesn't make it more obvious!

[UniFox21]

23 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Point made v early on this season when the new law started to affect decent goals being chalked off .....

 

the issue is that a goal cannot be scored by the arm ..... then they decided that a goal cannot be created by contact with the arm ..... I can’t disagree with that but there is an almost infinite number of ways that plays out and as such, impossible to make allowances for them so they decided to make no allowances at all. Hence the nonsense we see.  I think the law will be changed to become any contact with the arm which directs the ball into the goal (and is a notable deflection of the original path of the ball) plus any immediate assist to a goal where the attackers arm was not in a natural position. 
 

I would just leave it to the on field ref to make the call, having checked the monitor if alerted by the VAR.  

 

it still provides for plenty of situations where a goal will be allowed and many of us will feel that it shouldn’t ........and vica Versa but the current law is ridiculous....

Even this is slightly different to the actual rule, now its the arm can't be involved, even accidentally, in the build up to the goal. 

But it does add so many situations that are frankly ridiculous. 

[adam95581]

19 hours ago, bmt said:

If you only look at that stat (which shows nothing) and think it actually means something, man United are clearly cheating.

Could say the same about Brighton...

[Spudulike]

I got on board with VAR at the beginning as, I thought, it would remove the favoured club unconscious bias. However, all its done is transfered the bias from the on field ref to the VAR ref at Stockley Park. It hasn't levelled up. 

 

Bin it. 

[jammie82uk]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

WWE? 

 

How? 

I would guess they mean Scripted and winner picked before kickoff, if so I totally get it because that is entirely how I feel about football right now 

[jammie82uk]

14 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

I got on board with VAR at the beginning as, I thought, it would remove the favoured club unconscious bias. However, all its done is transfered the bias from the on field ref to the VAR ref at Stockley Park. It hasn't levelled up. 

 

Bin it. 

Completely agree, it’s ruined any enjoyment I had of football, I would watch every premier league game on tv if I could as I have done for years but when lock down happened I found that I didn’t even miss football and was obviously watching out of habit 

 

[MonmoreStef]

11 minutes ago, jammie82uk said:

Completely agree, it’s ruined any enjoyment I had of football, I would watch every premier league game on tv if I could as I have done for years but when lock down happened I found that I didn’t even miss football and was obviously watching out of habit 

 

The West Ham first goal against Chelsea a prime example. Having had a goal disallowed earlier the same player then scores again and was to nervous to celebrate almost waiting for the inevitable VAR involvement.  Obviously no crowd there but had there been I guarantee most of them would have been the same as the player. That instant joy a goal brings has been taken away. 

[Les-TA-Jon]

2-3 mins for them to decide Ndidi had handled it, then an incredibly harsh penalty given. Pundits: "correct decision"

 

Spur's goal disallowed, Pundits: "VAR is a disgrace!!!"

 

You watch the footage of both incidents. Both are completely accidental and contact is made because players from both sides are jostling for the ball. 

[Spudulike]

4 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

2-3 mins for them to decide Ndidi had handled it, then an incredibly harsh penalty given. Pundits: "correct decision"

 

Spur's goal disallowed, Pundits: "VAR is a disgrace!!!"

 

You watch the footage of both incidents. Both are completely accidental and contact is made because players from both sides are jostling for the ball. 

You're right. 'Experts' hardly bat an eyelid when it involves an unfancied club but we get it replayed and discussed nonstop if it involves others. 

 

It all builds up and reinforces the unconscious bias that has been present for decades. The Ferguson Man Utd years being a prime example of officials being subconciously influenced. 

 

VAR has proven to be unable to prevent it. 

[gerrytaggart]

2 hours ago, StanSP said:

WWE? 

 

How? 

Weally, Weally Excellent. 

[AKCJ]

22 hours ago, StanSP said:

Seeing so many opposition handball calls go in favour of them and then seeing Ndidi's given yesterday just infuriates me. I do think Ndidi's is handball but by the same rules/guidelines, how is Dunk's not given? 

 

It's the same point raised all season - the inconsistencies generated from each refs human perspective let's the function and concept of VAR down. How does one ref not give the Dunk handball but another gives the Ndidi one? 

 

Where we have favoured earlier on in the season with VAR (even if it was offsides correctly called eventually, they wouldn't have been without VAR) we've greatly suffered in several games this 2nd half of the season (Villa in the cup especially). 

 

I don't want to paper over the glaring cracks of our own performances as no one needs telling they've been utter rubbish for the most part, but it's still a problem and talking point that shouldn't be ignored. 

 

Do PGMOL constantly review VAR usage after each game/round of games? Or even at the end of the season? Do they actively look to see how the system and usage can be improved/human error can be reduced? 

 

22 hours ago, Stadt said:

Still convinced they reviewed the wrong incident for the Nakamba incident. How could you watch that and not come to the conclusion it’s handball?

 

The Man City home game was the most glaringly abysmal use of it. Praet gets the ball blasted at him, it hits his arms, fair enough it’s probably a penalty. Then in the same game De Bruyne about ****ing catches the ball from a free kick and it isn’t given - 100% that’s getting given agsinst us if that was the other way around.

 

The Dunk and Mee incidents weren’t even reviewed were they?  

The Nakamba one and the De Bruyne one were borderline corruption.

 

I'd love to have a conversation with the VAR officials of the day to see what explanation they could give.

 

I think the Dunk one is also just clearly a penalty. No idea what he was doing.

 

Ndidi's needed a bit of common sense. It clearly hits his arm but Keane's got his arm underneath Ndidi's arm pit and is pushing Ndidi's arm into the air. 

 

I think the Mee one and the Rudiger one is the kind of penalty you only get if you play for a red team in the North West.

[UniFox21]

Leicester City 0

Overturns: 14
Leading to goals for: 1
Disallowed goals for: 3
Leading to goals against: 1
Disallowed goals against: 4
Net goal score: +1
Subjective decisions for: 2
Subjective decisions against: 3
Net subjective score: -1

 

Game: Wolves (H; Aug. 11)
Incident: Wolves goal for Leander Dendoncker disallowed for handball in build-up by Willy Boly, 51st minute - FOR

 

Game: Tottenham (H; Sept. 21)
Incident: Goal disallowed for offside against Ayoze Perez, 16th minute - AGAINST
Incident: Son Heung-Min offside in build-up to Serge Aurier goal, 64th minute - FOR

 

Game: Burnley (H; Oct. 21)
Incident: Jonny Evans own goal ruled out due to a foul by Chris Wood, 80th minute - FOR

 

Game: Southampton (A; Oct. 25)
Incident: Ryan Bertrand sent off for challenge on Ayoze Perez, 12th minute - FOR

 

Game: Brighton (A; Nov. 23)
Incident: Jamie Vardy penalty retaken after James Maddison scored the rebound with encroachment, 80th minute - AGAINST

 

Game: Everton (H; Dec. 1)
Incident: Penalty for foul on Ben Chilwell by Mason Holgate cancelled, 34th minute - AGAINST
Incident: Kelechi Iheanacho effort, originally ruled offside, given as a goal, 94th minute - FOR

 

Game: Southampton (H; Jan. 11)
Incident: Penalty for Southampton cancelled for offside against Shane Long in build-up, 63rd minute - FOR
Incident: Jonny Evans goal ruled out for offside, 90th minute - AGAINST

 

Game: Wolves (A; Feb. 14)
Incident: Wolves goal for Willy Boly disallowed for offside in build-up by Pedro Neto, 44th minute - FOR

 

Game: Man City (H; Feb. 22)
Incident: Penalty (missed by Sergio Aguero) awarded for handball against Dennis Praet - AGAINST

 

Game: Norwich (A; Feb. 28)
Incident: Goal for Kelechi Iheanacho disallowed for handball, 49th minute - AGAINST

 

Game: Everton (A; July 1)
Incident: Penalty awarded (scored by Gylfi Sigurdsson) for handball against Wilfred Ndidi, 13th minute - AGAINST

 

Source: https://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/3929823/how-var-decisions-have-affected-every-premier-league-club

 

 

These stats only take into account the decisions actually overturned by VAR. This doesn't include any of the decisions that weren't impacted, so the Vardy "dive" against Watford, the numerous ridiculous handballs etc. 

[UniFox21]

22 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

 

The Nakamba one and the De Bruyne one were borderline corruption.

 

I'd love to have a conversation with the VAR officials of the day to see what explanation they could give.

 

I think the Dunk one is also just clearly a penalty. No idea what he was doing.

 

Ndidi's needed a bit of common sense. It clearly hits his arm but Keane's got his arm underneath Ndidi's arm pit and is pushing Ndidi's arm into the air. 

 

I think the Mee one and the Rudiger one is the kind of penalty you only get if you play for a red team in the North West.

The only reason I can think for the Dunk one is the slight flick the ball takes off Vardy's head just before. Dunk see's the ball is likely to flick off of Vardy's head and still commits to the dive:

https://twitter.com/JordanHalford/status/1275505013876502530/video/1   (16 seconds in) 

 

It's similar to the TAA handball vs Man City after the flick off Bernardo Silva, but that was reviewed for a good few minutes, this wasn't given a second look. 

[urban fox]

Was thinking of the Nacho "goal" against Norwich. The ball clearly hits his hand after coming off the defenders arm. However, this is where VAR scope is flawed. Any contact with an attackers hand/arm,deliberate or otherwise (stupid rule) in the build up to a goal means that it is disallowed and VAR will check it. But where it falls down, the same rule rule does not apply to defenders, so when the ball accidentally hits the defenders arm, thereby deflecting onto Nachos if the ref has not spotted this (or even worse if he has, but waves play on), it is outside of the remit of VAR so cannot be checked even if replays show it to be clear and obvious. It matters not that this directly diverts the ball onto the attackers arm, which is in the remit so is checked.The irony of this is if that incident occurs in the penalty area, then VAR would check BOTH handballs, the first for a possible penalty and for the goal. we would then have the situation that, if the defenders handball was deemed deliberate or his arm was in an unnatural position, then the goal would still be disallowed, but a penalty awarded for the earlier offence. The ref, or VAR for that matter would have no ability to use their judgement and allow "play on" as then the attackers handball comes into play. It is extremely complex.

This of course also begs the question as to when a passage of play is deemed to be an attack on goal. There was a situation earlier in the season where VVD was caught out by a bad bounce just inside his own half, the ball sitting up and brushing his arm, he then plays a great ball forward, two or three touches later the ball is in the net.Goal stands. had that happened ten or so yards further up the pitch there is every chance it would have been disallowed. How far from the opposition goal or how many touches does it take to be deemed in the attacking phase?

This is the conundrum, VAR has a limited scope as what it cannot and cannot check (Offside, handball or foul by attacking player in build up to goals, penalty decisions and straight red cards), so despite a clear and obvious error in other respects VAR has no input.

[urban fox]

15 minutes ago, UniFox21 said:

Leicester City 0

Overturns: 14
Leading to goals for: 1
Disallowed goals for: 3
Leading to goals against: 1
Disallowed goals against: 4
Net goal score: +1
Subjective decisions for: 2
Subjective decisions against: 3
Net subjective score: -1

 

Game: Wolves (H; Aug. 11)
Incident: Wolves goal for Leander Dendoncker disallowed for handball in build-up by Willy Boly, 51st minute - FOR

 

Game: Tottenham (H; Sept. 21)
Incident: Goal disallowed for offside against Ayoze Perez, 16th minute - AGAINST
Incident: Son Heung-Min offside in build-up to Serge Aurier goal, 64th minute - FOR

 

Game: Burnley (H; Oct. 21)
Incident: Jonny Evans own goal ruled out due to a foul by Chris Wood, 80th minute - FOR

 

Game: Southampton (A; Oct. 25)
Incident: Ryan Bertrand sent off for challenge on Ayoze Perez, 12th minute - FOR

 

Game: Brighton (A; Nov. 23)
Incident: Jamie Vardy penalty retaken after James Maddison scored the rebound with encroachment, 80th minute - AGAINST

 

Game: Everton (H; Dec. 1)
Incident: Penalty for foul on Ben Chilwell by Mason Holgate cancelled, 34th minute - AGAINST
Incident: Kelechi Iheanacho effort, originally ruled offside, given as a goal, 94th minute - FOR

 

Game: Southampton (H; Jan. 11)
Incident: Penalty for Southampton cancelled for offside against Shane Long in build-up, 63rd minute - FOR
Incident: Jonny Evans goal ruled out for offside, 90th minute - AGAINST

 

Game: Wolves (A; Feb. 14)
Incident: Wolves goal for Willy Boly disallowed for offside in build-up by Pedro Neto, 44th minute - FOR

 

Game: Man City (H; Feb. 22)
Incident: Penalty (missed by Sergio Aguero) awarded for handball against Dennis Praet - AGAINST

 

Game: Norwich (A; Feb. 28)
Incident: Goal for Kelechi Iheanacho disallowed for handball, 49th minute - AGAINST

 

Game: Everton (A; July 1)
Incident: Penalty awarded (scored by Gylfi Sigurdsson) for handball against Wilfred Ndidi, 13th minute - AGAINST

 

Source: https://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/3929823/how-var-decisions-have-affected-every-premier-league-club

 

 

These stats only take into account the decisions actually overturned by VAR. This doesn't include any of the decisions that weren't impacted, so the Vardy "dive" against Watford, the numerous ridiculous handballs etc. 

In my opinion, these are all correct decisions. However, i totally agree with you that where we have been "unlucky" is with the decisions that have not been overturned, such as the Mane dive, Vardy yellow and a high percentage of those handball not given.