coolhandfox Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 18 hours ago, shailen said: Thought Gary Neville made a good observation on Sunday in that Gray never makes those outside in runs like Sterling does. He always wants the ball to feet but given his finishing ability, he could get so many goals with those runs. The same Neville who couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuntman_Mike Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 15 hours ago, Royston. said: With a likely gruelling europa league campaign next season we probably need Gray. No reason we can't sell him and strengthen the squad at the same time. Just because we're playing more games it doesn't mean he personally needs to stay. This recent 'impact sub' rhetoric is glossing over the reality that he has been poor for a long time now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniFox21 Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 11 minutes ago, coolhandfox said: The same Neville who couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag. Managing is different to coaching/identifying weaknesses though. Neville as an ex-pro and former England coach has probably all the tools for identifying how and where a player can improve and even suggesting how to fix this. Managing is taking all of that and then planning a team out etc etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandfox Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 1 minute ago, UniFox21 said: Managing is different to coaching/identifying weaknesses though. Neville as an ex-pro and former England coach has probably all the tools for identifying how and where a player can improve and even suggesting how to fix this. Managing is taking all of that and then planning a team out etc etc. How may players improved under him at Valencia FC or being coached by him during his England...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingsX Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 (edited) - He’s an honest to god winger who can beat defenders, not another central attacker who can sort of play wide. - He has a high goals and assists return per 90’ -- crazy high when used as a sub. - He just turned 24 and is improving under Rodgers. - We have European football and need to add to the squad. But we should be shipping him out. What did I miss? Something about lousy games under Shakey and Puel? The club has to consider the player he is going into next and future seasons under Rodgers. Edited 22 July 2020 by KingsX 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniFox21 Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 3 minutes ago, coolhandfox said: How may players improved under him at Valencia FC or being coached by him during his England...... Would be impossible to suggest who he has or hasn't helped to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandfox Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 23 minutes ago, UniFox21 said: Would be impossible to suggest who he has or hasn't helped to improve. Just like its impossible to guess he has the right tools to improve a player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadt Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 56 minutes ago, UniFox21 said: As you say, Barnes and Perez play almost as inside forwards rather than actual winger, which would be fine if our fullbacks utilised the width enough. I'm hoping this 3 back formation is something we look at utilising more, as Gray can be utilised in both the wing and a central role. He seems a really decent finisher, given some of the chances he's taken have seemed harder than ones players like Barnes have missed Gray doesn’t consistently get into positions like Barnes does. Barnes’ misses are really frustrating but I don’t think we’ve ever had a wide player that gets into good positions as well as he does, not even Mahrez (most of his goal were from his shooting ability rather than positioning). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniFox21 Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 6 minutes ago, coolhandfox said: Just like its impossible to guess he has the right tools to improve a player? So both our points are invalid, nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandfox Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Stadt said: Gray doesn’t consistently get into positions like Barnes does. Barnes’ misses are really frustrating but I don’t think we’ve ever had a wide player that gets into good positions as well as he does, not even Mahrez (most of his goal were from his shooting ability rather than positioning). I'd have to agree, I wouldn't be surprise to see him develop into a more central player! If he could sort his shooting, combine with his technical ability, dribbling and pace, he could be a left field long term replacement for Vardy. Edited 22 July 2020 by coolhandfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacreblueits442 Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 3 minutes ago, coolhandfox said: I'd have to agree, I wouldn't be surprise to see him develop into a more central player! If he could sort his shooting, combine with his technical ability, dribbling and pace, he could be a left field long replacement for Vardy. ...so, what you are saying is, Puel was right!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honeybradger Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 12 minutes ago, Stadt said: Gray doesn’t consistently get into positions like Barnes does. Barnes’ misses are really frustrating but I don’t think we’ve ever had a wide player that gets into good positions as well as he does, not even Mahrez (most of his goal were from his shooting ability rather than positioning). Imo we need a Gray type winger who has a good passing range and a decent long shot to be the wide creator and a barnes type winger to pop up in the box and finish chances. It's what man city are doing with sterling and mahrez. Whether barnes and gray are good enough is still to be seen but i still have faith personally. Apart from late last year we havent really seen them together but i think they would be a good combo if they got gametime consitently as a duo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandfox Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 9 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said: ...so, what you are saying is, Puel was right!!! Right about what, replacing Vardy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacreblueits442 Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 Just now, coolhandfox said: Right about what, replacing Vardy? ...right about believing that Gray can play upfront!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandfox Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 10 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said: ...right about believing that Gray can play upfront!!! No I was talking about Barnes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadt Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 43 minutes ago, honeybradger said: Imo we need a Gray type winger who has a good passing range and a decent long shot to be the wide creator and a barnes type winger to pop up in the box and finish chances. It's what man city are doing with sterling and mahrez. Whether barnes and gray are good enough is still to be seen but i still have faith personally. Apart from late last year we havent really seen them together but i think they would be a good combo if they got gametime consitently as a duo. We need a Gray type winger that’s good at all the things Gray isn’t? I think Gray is probably scrutinised more than most of our players and I’m guilty of that too but he’s 24 now, played over 120 PL games (54 as starts). He’s not kicked on under 4 managers and now he’s approaching his peak years. We’ve got three options: Renew his contract Let his contract run down Sell him Given most clubs aren’t going to be flush with cash selling him probably isn’t an option. We’ve seen enough to know he’s not going to become markedly better than he is so I’d rather let his contract run down than renew but it depends if the club are content with him as a backup and he is too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadt Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 9 minutes ago, pmcla26 said: It’s weird with Barnes because he gets into the positions when we’re on the counter but when we’re trying to break down a low block his movement is really poor. If you watch some of Pérez’s movement from earlier on in the season and how it benefits Ricardo in the final 3rd and then compare it to Barnes’ movement it explains some of why Chilwell’s early season performances left some bemused. That doesn’t mean Chilwell’s defensive errors at times were Barnes’ fault, but in an attacking sense there have been many times where Ben takes the ball down the line then runs out of room whilst waiting for an option and Barnes is static. Barnes is ever improving though, I just think sometimes he’s too often reactive instead of being proactive. It just doesn’t ever look like he believes he’s got to that position and will score, just needs some composure in front of goal and to see the bigger picture of the game around him more often when he’s on the ball or making an option. Sometimes his movement is a bit odd, I agree, but that's an area Rodgers and his staff need to help him with. What doesn't help though is Barnes thrives on early balls where he has space to run at his marker, Chilwell's strength is carrying the ball rather than passing it so we end up in a scenario whereby Barnes doesn't have space and Chilwell has to find another option because he doesn't cross particularly well. I don't think it's a coincidence Barnes plays better without Chilwell because Fuchs/Justin/Thomas all release the ball earlier 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpeazzurro Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 2 hours ago, coolhandfox said: The same Neville who couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag. Whilst I'm not saying he'd make a good manager, he took over an extremely poisoned chalice in Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honeybradger Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 1 hour ago, Stadt said: We need a Gray type winger that’s good at all the things Gray isn’t? I think Gray is probably scrutinised more than most of our players and I’m guilty of that too but he’s 24 now, played over 120 PL games (54 as starts). He’s not kicked on under 4 managers and now he’s approaching his peak years. We’ve got three options: Renew his contract Let his contract run down Sell him Given most clubs aren’t going to be flush with cash selling him probably isn’t an option. We’ve seen enough to know he’s not going to become markedly better than he is so I’d rather let his contract run down than renew but it depends if the club are content with him as a backup and he is too Except we've seen Gray CAN do all this stuff, such as long balls, shots from outside the box. His problem is doing it consistently but he definitely has the talent to pull off higher level passes than either barnes or perez. Of course consistency is the key which is why i said we might need a better version of gray but to say he cant do it is kind of just wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester_Loyal Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 Give him a three year deal, use him as a squad player or as an impact player from the bench if he's happy to accept that. He's never gonna set the world alight but he can be a decent option coming on midway through a game or in the earlier cup rounds. However, as unlikely as it is, If someone offers 15m+ then I'd definitely accept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadt Posted 22 July 2020 Share Posted 22 July 2020 44 minutes ago, honeybradger said: Except we've seen Gray CAN do all this stuff, such as long balls, shots from outside the box. His problem is doing it consistently but he definitely has the talent to pull off higher level passes than either barnes or perez. Of course consistency is the key which is why i said we might need a better version of gray but to say he cant do it is kind of just wrong. One long range goal against United doesn't mean that it's in his repertoire, Vardy scored that screamer against Liverpool in 15/16 and hasn't scored a goal like that in the 100+ appearances since. You're into analytics, his expected assists p90 across the last few seasons is 0.12 p90, it's actually quite good this season at 0.23 but he's barely played. Sample size is really important, in 15/16 Ulloa was one of the most creative passes in the league because of the lowish amount of minutes and coming on as a sub routinely with a distinct game state (us winning and countering against the opposition). Gary can do a lot of things but so could most players if you give them enough opportunities - Ghezzal CAN shoot from distance, pick out passes, run with the ball etc it's just that he doesn't do it successfully enough. Gray is a better player than Ghezzal but hopefully you understand my point. Gray can do lots of technically difficult things but he rarely performs close to what he's capable of and that's the problem. Gray isn't 19 anymore, how long can we keep thinking "there's a player in there" before we realise he's just not going to live up to his potential 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted 24 July 2020 Share Posted 24 July 2020 he might not be 19 anymore but he is still only 24 a good few years short of what should be his peak years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 25 July 2020 Share Posted 25 July 2020 How many players do we say this about? "he's shown some promise we should keep him" There's Gray, Ihenacho, Kapustka, in the past it was Tom Lawrence and others that have faded from memory. If we want to progress, season on season we have to sign new players and let some of the old ones go. If they're not going to make it here it's best for everyone that they move on to where they'll get more playing time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalis Posted 26 July 2020 Share Posted 26 July 2020 He basically has a decent cameo about once every 5 games and does fvck all in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky Posted 26 July 2020 Share Posted 26 July 2020 5 minutes ago, Nalis said: He basically has a decent cameo about once every 5 games and does fvck all in between. He seems to be taking free-kicks, has he ever scored one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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