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7 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

These people can have all the qualifications possible, but you can tell some of them just haven't lived in the real world.

A fundamental problem of government and thinktanks

How many of Boris’s Cabinet I wonder are STILL from an Oxbridge background and how many representatives sit on SAGE who have ever really gotten anywhere near the frontline?

It just reproduces itself time after time after time

I wonder whether there will ever be a political party set up by a group of ‘normal’ people?

Not born with silver spoons, not radicalised in any way, just intelligent and down to earth?

@Babylon should start one. 

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1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

While there's definitely factors that get overlooked in complex academic analysis (perhaps they should have more behavioural scientists weighing in), the idea of the snooty "ivory tower" academic against the good honest "salt of the earth" Average Joe who lives in the "real world" (whatever that is) is a bit passe, perhaps?

Call it what you want, but if they couldn't see that sending hundreds of thousands of kids back, would result in them needing more tests, when the schools specifically tell them they need a negative test to come back, then there's something seriously wrong. They've spent months preparing this and fail to realise fundamental basics.

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2 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Call it what you want, but if they couldn't see that sending hundreds of thousands of kids back, would result in them needing more tests, when the schools specifically tell them they need a negative test to come back, then there's something seriously wrong. They've spent months preparing this and fail to realise fundamental basics.

Absolutely right

Who in their right mind would have expected anything else?

The mind boggles sometimes in terms of how the Government tries to state that something was ‘unexpected’ when it was so blatantly obvious what was going to happen

Kids pick up infections because they don’t bother too much about hygiene and don’t socially distance

Schools darent risk it so will send a child home at the first sign of a cough or sneeze

Then the parents have to be off ‘in case’ the child has got Covid AND can’t get tested quickly due to a shortage of tests 

Seriously, which part of this scenario did anyone think wouldn’t happen?

🧐

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3 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Call it what you want, but if they couldn't see that sending hundreds of thousands of kids back, would result in them needing more tests, when the schools specifically tell them they need a negative test to come back, then there's something seriously wrong. They've spent months preparing this and fail to realise fundamental basics.

...or they were pushed into signing off on it for political reasons. Or perhaps they did warn about this but were overruled or they knew the testing infrastructure wasn't there but all they could do was recommend that the powers that be sort that out ASAP and that didn't make it into the final report. Or, yes, they could well have overlooked a critical factor here.

 

In any case, this just seems that this is going for the wrong target in the form of an organisation that has precious little actual power beyond the advisory (clue is in the name, after all).

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12 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

A fundamental problem of government and thinktanks

How many of Boris’s Cabinet I wonder are STILL from an Oxbridge background and how many representatives sit on SAGE who have ever really gotten anywhere near the frontline?

It just reproduces itself time after time after time

I wonder whether there will ever be a political party set up by a group of ‘normal’ people?

Not born with silver spoons, not radicalised in any way, just intelligent and down to earth?

@Babylon should start one. 

Drain the Swamp... Make Wigston Great Again!!!

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49 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

I’ve honestly spoken to two people this week who are convinced the whole thing is one big conspiracy

My faith in the human race dwindles just a little bit more ever year that goes by

ALL the countries in the world got together - even the ones who can't stand each other - to agree on something as massive as this.

Yeah, seems legit lol

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29 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Absolutely right

Who in their right mind would have expected anything else?

The mind boggles sometimes in terms of how the Government tries to state that something was ‘unexpected’ when it was so blatantly obvious what was going to happen

Kids pick up infections because they don’t bother too much about hygiene and don’t socially distance

Schools darent risk it so will send a child home at the first sign of a cough or sneeze

Then the parents have to be off ‘in case’ the child has got Covid AND can’t get tested quickly due to a shortage of tests 

Seriously, which part of this scenario did anyone think wouldn’t happen?

🧐

The government didn’t think it would happen, or maybe they did as they have enough advisers to help them out, they surely couldn’t have been led to believe that getting the schools open was going to be a good idea, it’s just plain common sense. The crazy thing is that according to the government, the current spike is down to people being reckless with social distancing when from what I’ve witnessed this morning, a trip to wickes, b&q and screwfix where everyone I saw was wearing a mask and actually being a bit observant of who was around them, is not true, unless it’s just me with my limited socialising.

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Sadly this challenge has highlighted the incompetence of this administration 

 

they had enough on their plate trying to get a brexit deal sorted ....covid has found them out big time ..... governing through this crisis by focus groups is astonishing (and I’m told that’s pretty well what they’ve been doing ) 

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This deserves a read:

 

https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/PCR-test-Infectivity-Sep-2020.pdf

 

Take a look at the chart:

 

florence-5.jpg

At what point do we conclude that masks are not effective?  Brought in after deaths dropped to normal levels.  Should they increase again, now we are in masks, surely they will be deemed ineffective?  The science and various research papers over the years has already established this.  

 

Finally, a research paper on current levels in Spain which our govt will state is a basis for our own 2nd wave:

 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/does-the-resurgence-of-covid-19-in-spain-exhibit-exponential-growth/

 

Time will tell, but it isn't looking like a 2nd wave.

 

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

This deserves a read:

 

https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/PCR-test-Infectivity-Sep-2020.pdf

 

Take a look at the chart:

 

florence-5.jpg

At what point do we conclude that masks are not effective?  Brought in after deaths dropped to normal levels.  Should they increase again, now we are in masks, surely they will be deemed ineffective?  The science and various research papers over the years has already established this.  

 

Finally, a research paper on current levels in Spain which our govt will state is a basis for our own 2nd wave:

 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/does-the-resurgence-of-covid-19-in-spain-exhibit-exponential-growth/

 

Time will tell, but it isn't looking like a 2nd wave.

 

 

 

 

 

Certainly not right now, based on this single datapoint.

 

As is the case with a lot of this, there's a lot of variables for each country that would explain how many cases and deaths they have - mask wearing or lack thereof is just a small part of the puzzle and we're nowhere near having conclusive information on how effective they are.

 

I mean, my own totally anecdotal single datapoint take is that pretty much everyone and their mum have been wearing masks here in Korea since March and there has been 1/15 of the total Covid cases and 1/120 of the Covid deaths of the UK, all with a similar overall population number.

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19 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

There must be some sort of government grant for home schooling, or does that fall under private education, cos if it does, I’m sure Boris would be keen to help out, handshakes between the legs and all that stuff.

I think some kind of scheme could be drawn up if this is the road we end up going down.  The cost of housing needs a proper balance shift so it doesnt need 2 adults working full time to pay housing costs.

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18 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

WFH not seeming to be as professional to some.Not bothered personally and I can see why it’s popular.If this is the way forward,how long before employers start offering reduced wages because of the employees reduced costs?

Its the way forward for office type work, having people all travel to a place of work just seems so dated, also WFH would allow more people to work, as for some people the barrier to working is having to travel and work to set hours.

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38 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

This deserves a read:

 

https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/PCR-test-Infectivity-Sep-2020.pdf

 

Take a look at the chart:

 

florence-5.jpg

At what point do we conclude that masks are not effective?  Brought in after deaths dropped to normal levels.  Should they increase again, now we are in masks, surely they will be deemed ineffective?  The science and various research papers over the years has already established this.  

 

Finally, a research paper on current levels in Spain which our govt will state is a basis for our own 2nd wave:

 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/does-the-resurgence-of-covid-19-in-spain-exhibit-exponential-growth/

 

Time will tell, but it isn't looking like a 2nd wave.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm more amazed at the variation in data presentation this pandemic has exposed me too. The next time I construct a PowerPoint presentation, I'm going to baffle my colleagues with so much bullshit, I might actually convince them I know what I'm talking about.

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33 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

This deserves a read:

 

https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/PCR-test-Infectivity-Sep-2020.pdf

 

Take a look at the chart:

 

florence-5.jpg

At what point do we conclude that masks are not effective?  Brought in after deaths dropped to normal levels.  Should they increase again, now we are in masks, surely they will be deemed ineffective?  The science and various research papers over the years has already established this.  

No it really hasn't. 

 

The issue is incorrect application and that makeshift, poorly fitting or substandard face coverings do not prevent the contraction of the virus, but, even these may reduce the transmission. 

 

A CE approved KN95 face mask, if properly fitted and maintained will reduce inhalation of aqueous viral aerosols emitted from infected individuals when talking, coughing, or sneezing. The N95 certification indicates that 95% of the total particles with an average particle size of 300 nm are blocked by a material under standard conditions which is why N95 respirators are typically used by physicians and surgeons. COVID19 does not simply float in the air - it needs to adhere to aerosols which places it in the range of filtration for these masks, but they are not intended for prolonged use and medical staff are trained in their use. 

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7 hours ago, st albans fox said:

If they shut down many parts of ‘normal life’ again then lots of people will have no work to go to ...... and then even some of those that do will end up losing their jobs because demand for services will fall away .....

 

they will do their utmost to avoid anything more than two week restrictions of bars/restaurants/gyms and I doubt they will shut down shops. 
 

will be a request to stay home as much as possible - they will want to restrict our domestic social lives and interactions 

 

This is the problem.

 

Its my view that the two single things that cause the most spread are schools and hospitality. Alarms bells were there when the hospitality sector said they basically could not operate under safe conditions (masks and 2 metres).  We could open up shops (with masks enforced), hotels (but without the restaurant), zoo's, park's etc.

 

However some people are not patient and they want kids back at full time education right now, they not prepared t give it half a year or so of a alternative system, and the hospitality sector is a big part of the uk economy, I dont think the government are bothered if people cannot adjust their social life to exclude going out, its the economical impact they concerned about.

 

To me the only things that really matter in life are been able to spend time with loved ones, friends, having a roof over your head, food and water.  Basic things to pass time, reading books, computer games, films, education (which doesnt need to be done in a school).  Having lots of holidays, latest smart phone, multiple cars, and other excessive items ultimately dont matter.  But people dont want to adjust their lifestyle, they want to keep what they used to.  We have got used to been spoilt in a sense.  I think preserving lives is more important then that, economies can be rebuilt, but once someone is dead, they dead.

 

This is why I have always had a problem with saying people can go to a pub, kids can go to school  full time, but yet someone cannot visit family in their home or garden.  If you take that very basic part of life away, then I expect consequently a economic shutdown, however if these basic liberties are allowed, I am ok with the economy been opened up, however with some sense applied.  If we open up pubs then the government need to be prepared to enforce rules, we know by now money comes first to business owners, they will put it ahead of safety regardless of what public comments they make, there needs to be a willingness to enforce and set an example, this then allows the pubs that do things with safety in mind to stay open.  Restaurants I feel are more difficult though.

 

With all this said though, I also think they should only be using hospital data, I think if lots of people are been tested positive in community testing, but the hospitals are still quiet, then it can be set aside, the only thing that really matters is stress on hospitals and people dying.  There has been over reactions to community testing.  There could also be the possibility of repurposing buildings into mini schools so e.g. make a library a class room, have kids sat there been teached by video conference, same with churches, community centres, etc (but only for parents who have to work during schooling hours).  This can all be done better, it just needs people to think out of the box and willing to be flexible, there is definitely a rigidness with people saying it must be done how its always been done.

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3 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

The number of people purely focussing on actual deaths continues to astound me too. There is so much information coming out about the potential long term health implications for people who have been infected, even those who are not particularly ill, or even show no symptoms at all. There are studies which have found multiple organ damage, mental impairment, chronic fatigue, all life changing, but hey, they're not dead so let's all get back to normal. The long term damage is quite frightening if people could actually be bothered to read it, but sadly some seem to just want to bury their heads in the sand, or just look at the numbers of actual deaths.

 

Unfortunately keeping this at bay as best we can relies on the majority having some kind of moral responsibility, which seems to be lacking in so many people these day.  If we carry on like this it won't be long before the NHS is overwhelmed again, as is already coming close in France and Spain. 

This is true as well, but I didnt mention it as there is already hostility towards the idea of this been a disease that cannot be just swept aside.

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We've been constantly told we'll have a second wave yet the leaders seem baffled that it has arrived.

 

We're bombarded with calls to get tests yet are criticised when we actually get them.

 

We're told to go back to work, it is safe, public transport is safe yet we're heading for another restriction.

 

Just fed up with it all- the confused messaging, the "victim" blaming (the victim here being the public looking to stay safe). Just admit that you've got it wrong, we're still a long way off in a difficult time. Continually saying how great you are, how world-class the service is when it blatantly isn't, then blaming the public when it doesn't work is pathetic. That's why people have had enough of being lectured.

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1 hour ago, Legend_in_blue said:

This deserves a read:

 

https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/PCR-test-Infectivity-Sep-2020.pdf

 

Take a look at the chart:

 

florence-5.jpg

At what point do we conclude that masks are not effective?  Brought in after deaths dropped to normal levels.  Should they increase again, now we are in masks, surely they will be deemed ineffective?  The science and various research papers over the years has already established this.  

 

Finally, a research paper on current levels in Spain which our govt will state is a basis for our own 2nd wave:

 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/does-the-resurgence-of-covid-19-in-spain-exhibit-exponential-growth/

 

Time will tell, but it isn't looking like a 2nd wave.

 

 

 

 

 

Wasn’t a lot of the stuff against masks based on potential behaviour, rather whether they reduce particles etc. 
 

They are unlikely to have taken into account the increased use of hand sanitiser, social distancing etc. 

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