Madeleine McCann

[J.Lisemore]

They didn't spend that money on themselves,they spent it on investigators. Nobody was forced to contribute or buy their book.

 

They've lost their daughter, partly through their own negligence admittedly, is there any need to wish more misery on them?

 

I'm sure Madeleine wouldn't have seen it like that.

 

It baffles me how they haven't even been locked up for negligence, that is proven and is a criminal offence, yet they get away with it? disgusting to be honest.

[Alf Bentley]

I'm sure Madeleine wouldn't have seen it like that.

 

It baffles me how they haven't even been locked up for negligence, that is proven and is a criminal offence, yet they get away with it? disgusting to be honest.

 

 

The forum is lucky to have you as an expert on Portuguese criminal law.

 

Not the sort of negligence I've been guilty of, but I've been guilty of other kinds of negligence. Not sure I agree that people should be locked up whenever they make an error of judgment - and not sure they "got away with it", really.

 

Also, if we lock up 20m people the first time they're found to be negligent, who will be left on the outside to fund all the prisons? And to whine about the "nanny state"?   

[David Guiza]

The forum is lucky to have you as an expert on Portuguese criminal law.

 

Not the sort of negligence I've been guilty of, but I've been guilty of other kinds of negligence. Not sure I agree that people should be locked up whenever they make an error of judgment - and not sure they "got away with it", really.

 

Also, if we lock up 20m people the first time they're found to be negligent, who will be left on the outside to fund all the prisons? And to whine about the "nanny state"?   

It doesn't matter if it's the first or last time they are negligent though, does it? Negligent behaviour is a wide subject, if you take the wheel after a few pints you are being negligent and making an error of judgement and I hasten to suggest that you wouldn't say that didn't warrant punishment.

Making an error of judgement that results in the death of a person is basically the actus reus for manslaughter, and again I assume you wouldn't say that the majority of manslaughter cases should be thrown out?

I agree that every man, woman and child is negligent on an almost daily basis but if your negligence results in something like this then I personally feel you are at least partly to blame and should face the consequences.

[MPH]

They spent some of it on their mortgage.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1567856/McCanns-used-1m-fund-to-pay-mortgage.html

 

 

 

Could that be because they were unable to work as they were busy looking for their kid?

 

 

 

It's  not like they took a pot of cash and went to Vegas....

Edited 24 February 2016 by MPH

[Bellend Sebastian]

It doesn't matter if it's the first or last time they are negligent though, does it? Negligent behaviour is a wide subject, if you take the wheel after a few pints you are being negligent and making an error of judgement and I hasten to suggest that you wouldn't say that didn't warrant punishment.

Making an error of judgement that results in the death of a person is basically the actus reus for manslaughter, and again I assume you wouldn't say that the majority of manslaughter cases should be thrown out?

I agree that every man, woman and child is negligent on an almost daily basis but if your negligence results in something like this then I personally feel you are at least partly to blame and should face the consequences.

 

It's not like in this case there haven't been any consequences though is it?

 

I'm confused as to what consequences people want there to be that are worse than never seeing their kid again

[J.Lisemore]

It's not like in this case there haven't been any consequences though is it?

 

I'm confused as to what consequences people want there to be that are worse than never seeing their kid again

 

You commit a serious crime ---> you go to prison.

 

Would you really be of the same opinion if we were to find out that there was no abduction and it was all staged?

[David Guiza]

It's not like in this case there haven't been any consequences though is it?

 

I'm confused as to what consequences people want there to be that are worse than never seeing their kid again

I don't think anybody, with a brain/heart or anyway, thinks that they haven't suffered and will continue to so for the rest of their lives. However, being emotionally attached and suffering doesn't excuse or exonerate someone from a wrongdoing.

Emotion aside, the parents aren't the only victims in this matter, in fact they aren't even the substantial victim; Madeleine is. Yes you have to consider the emotion tournament and alike as a mitigating factor in deciding the case, but personally I don't feel that is enough of a reason to remove all liability on their parts.  

I cannot see any further action ever being taken anyway, due to the length of time since the event, the media, emotional outpours anyway. Whether or not that is right is up to the individual.

[yorkie1999]

You commit a serious crime ---> you go to prison.

 

Would you really be of the same opinion if we were to find out that there was no abduction and it was all staged?

What serious crime have they committed?

[Wymsey]

If I had a missing child, I would spend days/weeks avidly trying to search for them at the location they were last seen and surrounding areas - and try to encourage locals to help in some way.

I'm not sure, but I think her parents have only been back to the resort a handful of times.

[Alf Bentley]

It doesn't matter if it's the first or last time they are negligent though, does it? Negligent behaviour is a wide subject, if you take the wheel after a few pints you are being negligent and making an error of judgement and I hasten to suggest that you wouldn't say that didn't warrant punishment.

Making an error of judgement that results in the death of a person is basically the actus reus for manslaughter, and again I assume you wouldn't say that the majority of manslaughter cases should be thrown out?

I agree that every man, woman and child is negligent on an almost daily basis but if your negligence results in something like this then I personally feel you are at least partly to blame and should face the consequences.

 

 

There are degrees of negligence, though. If you drive drunk, you know that you are committing a crime, regardless of whether you cause an accident. Action is taken to prevent and punish drink-driving (breathalysing of erratic drivers etc.) - not just to bang up drink-drivers who happen to kill people.

 

Leaving a kid alone for half-an-hour at a time is a grey area. I wouldn't have done it myself, but I've done other things that people would consider negligent or dangerous. Lots of parents allow children to come home to an empty house or to play alone in the park or street or take their eyes off them while out shopping. Should we punish them all or only those whose kids have an accident? Should we only punish those "negligent parents" whose kids die (e.g. Denise Bulger)? That would seem to be a strange justice system. But the alternative is to operate a police state, with police continually swooping on any parent whose kid is left alone for 5 minutes - an unacceptable and economically unaffordable intrusion into family life.

 

Action does need to be taken where children are subject to abuse or serious neglect. If Madeleine had been found wandering in the street after being left alone, it would have been reasonable for the police to warn her parents about the risk - and maybe to call Portuguese social services if they repeated their error. It could only constitute manslaughter if (a) there was conclusive proof that she's dead; (b) the law stated that leaving your kid alone in a bedroom for half an hour constituted criminal negligence.

 

I wouldn't have left my daughter out of earshot for half an hour at that age, but more out of a concern that she'd have had an accident or woken up crying with nobody there. You can hardly anticipate someone coming in through the window of an apparently safe residence to abduct your child. I've taken my eyes off my daughter in apparently safe parks/playgrounds for several minutes (admittedly when she was a bit older than 3) - would I have been guilty of manslaughter if some criminal had abducted her?

 

As for "facing the consequences", I'm sure the McCanns would much rather serve a jail term for negligence (even if that would be incredibly harsh) than face the consequences they face now, day in, day out.

 

People are very keen to judge others harshly. I wonder if they'd accept similarly harsh judgements of their own acts of negligence? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and all that..... 

[Webbo]

You commit a serious crime ---> you go to prison.

 

Would you really be of the same opinion if we were to find out that there was no abduction and it was all staged?

Would we have a different opinion if it turned out that they were guilty and it was a cover up? Obviously yes, but as there's no proof that's what happened and their actions since would seem to be the opposite of what a person trying to get away with a cover up would do, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

[J.Lisemore]

What serious crime have they committed?

 

If neglecting 3 toddlers that are your responsibility to keep safe in a foreign country isn't crime-worthy, then I'm living on another planet.

 

Would we have a different opinion if it turned out that they were guilty and it was a cover up? Obviously yes, but as there's no proof that's what happened and their actions since would seem to be the opposite of what a person trying to get away with a cover up would do, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

Fair enough.

 

What I can't get my head around is, if this was a worldwide hunt for Madeleine, their simply HAS to be somebody out there with a heart that knows something.

 

Either this was the most well-planned abduction ever seen, or the parents know something we don't.

[yorkie1999]

If neglecting 3 toddlers that are your responsibility to keep safe in a foreign country isn't crime-worthy, then I'm living on another planet.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

What I can't get my head around is, if this was a worldwide hunt for Madeleine, their simply HAS to be somebody out there with a heart that knows something.

 

Either this was the most well-planned abduction ever seen, or the parents know something we don't.

It's not a criminal offence though. But you weren't alluding to that, you were suggesting that it had been staged.

[richardsfoxes]

Come on Alf, huge difference to what your saying and what they did, leaving 3 children unattended for 30-1 hr at a time while they we're having food is disgraceful, not only are they not view able at all their in a foreign country, they are both doctors correct? they must see children coming in and hearing stories of children hurting themselves from falling down stairs or bashing their heads by accident or even worse the little ones choking on their own vomit, if little maddy had opened the door and looked to try and find her mum and dad and got ran over i wonder if you would change your view on negligence. Don't have children myself but it doesn't take a genius to understand what the implications could be to leaving your children alone in a hotel room for 30 minutes - 1 hour. 

[J.Lisemore]

It's not a criminal offence though. But you weren't alluding to that, you were suggesting that it had been staged.

They should be inside for neglection alone, nevermind the rest. There's people in our society that get sent down for less.

You only need to watch some of the video's recently posted on here to understand their versions(all families involved)of what happened are majorly inconsistent.

[Alf Bentley]

Come on Alf, huge difference to what your saying and what they did, leaving 3 children unattended for 30-1 hr at a time while they we're having food is disgraceful, not only are they not view able at all their in a foreign country, they are both doctors correct? they must see children coming in and hearing stories of children hurting themselves from falling down stairs or bashing their heads by accident or even worse the little ones choking on their own vomit, if little maddy had opened the door and looked to try and find her mum and dad and got ran over i wonder if you would change your view on negligence. Don't have children myself but it doesn't take a genius to understand what the implications could be to leaving your children alone in a hotel room for 30 minutes - 1 hour. 

 

 

I'm not sure what the "huge difference" is? I've never disputed the idea that it was a misjudgment / negligence. What I've disputed is the idea that they should be locked up, are guilty of manslaughter or "got away with it".

 

I have also disputed the scale of the negligence and questioned the viability of having the law intervene except in cases of extreme negligence. To what extent should the law be telling parents how to look after their kids? A limited extent, I'd say.

 

For the reasons you cite, I wouldn't have left children that young alone. I don't understand why they didn't roster an adult to babysit each evening. But that wouldn't have eliminated all risk. Kids can choke, hit their heads, wander off or be abducted with an adult in the next room none the wiser. Even with a baby monitor on, there's no guarantee you'd hear if something were amiss, though there's definitely a better chance.

 

My daughter now walks half an hour to her secondary school, through a built-up area. A lad was assaulted nearby a few months back. If something bad happened, should my wife and I be locked up for making a risk assessment that went wrong? Should we ferry her everywhere she goes and if so, how would she ever acquire the judgment and awareness to become a capable adult? Should the state order us to accompany her to school and imprison us if we don't?

 

I disagree with the decision that the McCanns and their friends took, but 99.99% of the time the worst consequences would have been that a child woke up crying and alone or maybe had a minor accident. I don't feel that it's my place - or the place of the law - to intervene or be too judgmental about the dreadful consequences of their misjudgment.

 

I also question the motives of people who are over-critical of the McCanns. I tend to assume they are frustrated with their own lives and want to release some of that frustration by spitting venom at others (I'm not talking about your perfectly reasonable comments).

[Fox92]

I'm sorry for bumping the thread guys but we love a good debate on FT and I like seeing the different opinions on this particular subject.

[J.Lisemore]

I also question the motives of people who are over-critical of the McCanns. I tend to assume they are frustrated with their own lives and want to release some of that frustration by spitting venom at others (I'm not talking about your perfectly reasonable comments).

No, I'm just of a different opinion to you. It doesn't make me 'frustrated with my own life' because I think they know what happened.

[richardsfoxes]

Ive miss read what you originally typed I thought you disagreed with it being negligence, apologies, i dont agree with them going to jail, their jail is the fact they have to live with their mistake for the rest of their lives but regarding your child the difference between your situation and the Mcanns is thousands of children walk to school and are fine but do thousands of parents leave their children in a hotel apartment alone for that frame of time, like we have both said they made a huge mistake and have paid the ultimate price for it, if that is indeed what happened to her I don't usually debate these sort of subjects just wanted to add my two cents. 

[Vlad the Fox]

I also question the motives of people who are over-critical of the McCanns. I tend to assume they are frustrated with their own lives and want to release some of that frustration by spitting venom at others (I'm not talking about your perfectly reasonable comments).

Agree. I can't understand how people can hate with so much passion people they don't know. As mentioned the only mistake they made was leaving their kids unattended (something that was quite common and acceptable not too many years back), would people see their other two children without their parents while they served a prison sentence to satisfy their rage. I know someone who posts all kinds of hateful crap that goes round Facebook yet she can't be bothered to look after her own kid and farms her off to anyone who will have her. It seems that people dislike them doing everything they possible can to keep their daughters name and face in the public domain while searching for their daughter, and there is an ugly class element thrown in for good measure.

They shouldn't have left their children unsupervised but the person who took her is the real criminal.

[Carl the Llama]

 

There are degrees of negligence, though. If you drive drunk, you know that you are committing a crime, regardless of whether you cause an accident. Action is taken to prevent and punish drink-driving (breathalysing of erratic drivers etc.) - not just to bang up drink-drivers who happen to kill people.

 

Leaving a kid alone for half-an-hour at a time is a grey area. I wouldn't have done it myself, but I've done other things that people would consider negligent or dangerous. Lots of parents allow children to come home to an empty house or to play alone in the park or street or take their eyes off them while out shopping. Should we punish them all or only those whose kids have an accident? Should we only punish those "negligent parents" whose kids die (e.g. Denise Bulger)? That would seem to be a strange justice system. But the alternative is to operate a police state, with police continually swooping on any parent whose kid is left alone for 5 minutes - an unacceptable and economically unaffordable intrusion into family life.

 

Action does need to be taken where children are subject to abuse or serious neglect. If Madeleine had been found wandering in the street after being left alone, it would have been reasonable for the police to warn her parents about the risk - and maybe to call Portuguese social services if they repeated their error. It could only constitute manslaughter if (a) there was conclusive proof that she's dead; (b) the law stated that leaving your kid alone in a bedroom for half an hour constituted criminal negligence.

 

I wouldn't have left my daughter out of earshot for half an hour at that age, but more out of a concern that she'd have had an accident or woken up crying with nobody there. You can hardly anticipate someone coming in through the window of an apparently safe residence to abduct your child. I've taken my eyes off my daughter in apparently safe parks/playgrounds for several minutes (admittedly when she was a bit older than 3) - would I have been guilty of manslaughter if some criminal had abducted her?

 

As for "facing the consequences", I'm sure the McCanns would much rather serve a jail term for negligence (even if that would be incredibly harsh) than face the consequences they face now, day in, day out.

 

People are very keen to judge others harshly. I wonder if they'd accept similarly harsh judgements of their own acts of negligence? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and all that..... 

Agree with most of this but there is one serious point of contention:  It's not at all certain (or even likely judging by reports) that the window was a point of access due to a lack of evidence it had been forced open, so either the kidnapper was incredibly well trained in breaking and entering (but careless enough to leave evidence of their presence by leaving the window wide open when they left), the McCanns lied about the windows and shutters being closed when they left, or else any uninvited intruder, if there was one, came in through the unlocked patio door.  Watching that 4 hour video last night (I lead a very interesting life) opened up a lot of uncomfortable questions - I feel like if I was a parent in their situation the immediate shock and grief would naturally lead to inconsistencies between my first police report and subsequent ones after my mind's cleared but there seems to be a lot more to this case.

[fuchsntf]

There are degrees of negligence, though. If you drive drunk, you know that you are committing a crime, regardless of whether you cause an accident. Action is taken to prevent and punish drink-driving (breathalysing of erratic drivers etc.) - not just to bang up drink-drivers who happen to kill people.

Leaving a kid alone for half-an-hour at a time is a grey area. I wouldn't have done it myself, but I've done other things that people would consider negligent or dangerous. Lots of parents allow children to come home to an empty house or to play alone in the park or street oMior take their eyes off them while out shopping. Should we punish them all or only those whose kids have an accident? Should we only punish those "negligent parents" whose kids die (e.g. Denise Bulger)? That would seem to be a strange justice system. But the alternative is to operate a police state, with police continually swooping on any parent whose kid is left alone for 5 minutes - an unacceptable and economically unaffordable intrusion into family life.

Action does need to be taken where children are subject to abuse or serious neglect. If Madeleine had been found wandering in the street after being left alone, it would have been reasonable for the police to warn her parents about the risk - and maybe to call Portuguese social services if they repeated their error. It could only constitute manslaughter if (a) there was conclusive proof that she's dead; (b) the law stated that leaving your kid alone in a bedroom for half an hour constituted criminal negligence.

I wouldn't have left my daughter out of earshot for half an hour at that age, but more out of a concern that she'd have had an accident or woken up crying with nobody there. You can hardly anticipate someone coming in through the window of an apparently safe residence to abduct your child. I've taken my eyes off my daughter in apparently safe parks/playgrounds for several minutes (admittedly when she was a bit older than 3) - would I have been guilty of manslaughter if some criminal had abducted her?

As for "facing the consequences", I'm sure the McCanns would much rather serve a jail term for negligence (even if that would be incredibly harsh) than face the consequences they face now, day in, day out.

People are very keen to judge others harshly. I wonder if they'd accept similarly harsh judgements of their own acts of negligence? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and all that.....

Sort of put my points of view as well.well thought post..

Though I feel there are degrees of negligence, it couldnt and shouldnt be

measured by law, unless its something like negligence abuse.

letting a 4 yr old play alone on a playground, or roam the streets.Leaving them

alone in a strange house (holiday-let), Without supervision, those days are well gone.

Poor parental care yes ,negligent yes, but not criminal negligent.

Even though what the Mccanns did actually made me angry.

It brings one point to attention, how people with social standing like the Mccanns

would have had, and still many like them, try to give social comments and opinions

with an ara of ' arrogance and knowing better' Upon others.

More unique in uk society Doctors dont necessarily make better parents.

Edited 24 February 2016 by fuchsntf

[Alf Bentley]

 

 

Agree with most of this but there is one serious point of contention:  It's not at all certain (or even likely judging by reports) that the window was a point of access due to a lack of evidence it had been forced open, so either the kidnapper was incredibly well trained in breaking and entering (but careless enough to leave evidence of their presence by leaving the window wide open when they left), the McCanns lied about the windows and shutters being closed when they left, or else any uninvited intruder, if there was one, came in through the unlocked patio door.  Watching that 4 hour video last night (I lead a very interesting life) opened up a lot of uncomfortable questions - I feel like if I was a parent in their situation the immediate shock and grief would naturally lead to inconsistencies between my first police report and subsequent ones after my mind's cleared but there seems to be a lot more to this case.

 

 

 

I've seen a couple of programmes before that looked at the detail of what happened, but lots of detail doesn't necessarily clarify what happened.....you just end up with lots of "Yes, but...".

 

Maybe the kidnapper left the window open because he thought he heard/saw someone coming, either in the street or within the complex - or was only interested in getting away with the child? Maybe the McCanns misremembered or wanted to believe that they'd checked the windows, when they hadn't? Maybe the intruder did enter via the patio door? If the parents were busy eating, drinking and chatting to their friends, I don't suppose they'd have noticed.

 

I don't envy you that 4-hour video experience, though. I find it quite depressing just talking about it on here, which is why I'll withdraw from this debate now.

[David Guiza]

I do agree with what you've said Alf, and I often do on these type of topics. I just believe that a prosecution against them is the right thing to do, from a legal standpoint. I wouldn't for one moment suggest that they deserved to suffer in prison and leave the other two parentless, that is somewhat barbaric. I do however feel that they have been exonerated from liability by a lot of people for what was negligent at worst and silly at best. Nobody could have predicted what happened, but leaving young children unattended is too big of a risk to be ignored, for me.

I'm the same as you though, I comment on something like this and then regret it later as I prefer to be blissful in ignorance as opposed to dwelling on such subjects.  

[Benguin]

 

I do agree with what you've said Alf, and I often do on these type of topics. I just believe that a prosecution against them is the right thing to do, from a legal standpoint. I wouldn't for one moment suggest that they deserved to suffer in prison and leave the other two parentless, that is somewhat barbaric. I do however feel that they have been exonerated from liability by a lot of people for what was negligent at worst and silly at best. Nobody could have predicted what happened, but leaving young children unattended is too big of a risk to be ignored, for me.

I'm the same as you though, I comment on something like this and then regret it later as I prefer to be blissful in ignorance as opposed to dwelling on such subjects.  

 

If the child belonged to someone else, they had loco parentis and this happened, I would agree that action could be taken against them in court. It'd be a civil lawsuit though and not of a criminal nature. It took place in a different jurisdiction, causal link is argumentative and I think a defence advocate would have a field day getting any jury to sympathise with the situation. Neglect is about the only thing a criminal court could place any credence to but how a prosecution could get around actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, is beyond me in this instance.

 

It's such a sad story and to some extent I do agree that blame should be placed with the parents but ultimately they have lost a child and have paid for that everyday for the last 8 years.