Is it coz I is black?

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Thanks Uncle Ben.

 

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/23/great-power/

 

This expression has been attributed to two very different sources: Voltaire and the Spider-Man comic book. Would you please examine its provenance?

 

Quote Investigator: QI and other researchers have been unable to locate this statement in the oeuvre of Voltaire who died in 1778, and currently that linkage is unsupported.

QI has found a strong match during the period of the French Revolution. The following passage appeared with a date of May 8, 1793 in a collection of the decrees made by the French National Convention. Boldface has been added to excerpts: 1

Les Représentans du peuple se rendront à leur destination, investis de la plus haute confiance et de pouvoirs illimités. Ils vont déployer un grand caractère. Ils doivent envisager qu’une grande responsabilité est la suite inséparable d’un grand pouvoir. Ce sera à leur énergie, à leur courage, et sur-tout à leur prudence, qu’ils devront leur succès et leur gloire.

Here’s one possible translation into English:

The people’s representatives will reach their destination, invested with the highest confidence and unlimited power. They will show great character. They must consider that great responsibility follows inseparably from great power. To their energy, to their courage, and above all to their prudence, they shall owe their success and their glory.

Prominent leaders such as Lord Melbourne, Winston Churchill, Teddy Roosevelt, and Franklin D. Roosevelt made similar statements in later years. Also, the appearance of an instance in a Spider-Man story in 1962 was influential in U.S. popular culture.

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

A thematic precursor appeared in a well-known Biblical verse: Luke 12:48. The meaning was somewhat different because it did not mention power. The New International and King James translations rendered the verse as follows: 2

From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

In 1793 the following statement appeared in a volume issued by the French National Convention as mentioned previously:

Ils doivent envisager qu’une grande responsabilité est la suite inséparable d’un grand pouvoir.

English translation: They must consider that great responsibility follows inseparably from great power.

In 1817 a debate was held in the United Kingdom House of Commons concerning the suspension of habeas corpus, and a member named William Lamb spoke in favor of suspension. During the following decades Lamb became a powerful political figure, and ultimately he emerged as Prime Minister and now is better known as Lord Melbourne. The transcript of Lamb’s words in 1817 used quotation marks to enclose the maxim indicating that the expression was already in circulation. Please note that the modern reader will find the style of the transcript atypical because it was presented from a third-person perspective. The referent “he” was used to identify the speaker Mr. Lamb: 3

It was common to speak of the power of the press, and he admitted that its power was great. He should, however, beg leave to remind the conductors of the press of their duty to apply to themselves a maxim which they never neglected to urge on the consideration of government –“that the possession of great power necessarily implies great responsibility.” They stood in a high situation, and ought to consider justice and truth the great objects of their labours, and not yield themselves up to their interests or their passions.

In 1854 the Reverend John Cumming, a Minister of the Scottish National Church, published a religious text that included a thematic statement: 4 5

The order of God’s providence, and certainly the law of Christ’s Gospel, is, that wherever there is great power, lofty position, there is great responsibility, and a call to instant duty. If your house is very magnificent in its architectural splendors without, and in its furniture within, it is that you should look around you, and take care that the houses in the lanes behind shall not be so miserable and wretched as they are.

In 1858 a Masonic periodical called “The Ashlar” printed a thematic instance that re-ordered the sequence of the two key terms: 6

He cannot act on their judgment, but must be governed by his own. As he has great responsibility, he has great power, and is bound by the strongest obligations to maintain that power and the dignity of his office.

During a speech in 1879, Sir Hercules G. R. Robinson extended the saying by adding anxiety as an inescapable addendum: 7

But great power carries with it great responsibility, and great responsibility entails a large amount of anxiety.

In 1879 a report by the Trustees of the Public Library of Boston, Massachusetts included a statement from Professor Henry W. Haynes that contained a version of the saying: 8

The possession of great powers and capacity for good implies equally great responsibilities in their employment. Where so much has been given much is required.

In 1906 statesman Winston Churchill delivered a speech in the House of Commons that included an extended instance of the adage: 9

Where there is great power there is great responsibility, where there is less power there is less responsibility, and where there is no power there can, I think, be no responsibility.

In 1908 President Theodore Roosevelt wrote a letter to Sir George Otto Trevelyan that included a discussion of his reasons for declining to seek a third term as President: 10

I believe in a strong executive; I believe in power; but I believe that responsibility should go with power, and that it is not well that the strong executive should be a perpetual executive.

In 1913 John A. Fitch wrote a commentary that discussed the power of the United States Steel Corporation in the journal “The Railroad Trainman”, and he referenced the adage: 11

It may be no crime to be possessed of great power. But great power carries with it great responsibility as to the use that is made of it.

The night before Franklin D. Roosevelt died he penned a speech about Thomas Jefferson which he was planning to deliver during a radio address. Instead, the text was given to journalists after Roosevelt’s death, and it was released by the Associated Press: 12

Today we have learned in the agony of war that great power involves great responsibility. Today we can no more escape the consequences of German and Japanese aggression than could he avoid the consequences of attacks by the Barbary Corsairs a century and a half before.

The heroic fantasy figure Spider-Man was introduced in the August 1962 issue of the comic book “Amazing Fantasy”. The guiding principle of Spider-Man’s actions was formulated in this origin story and expressed as a caption. However, the words were spoken neither by the main character, Peter Parker, nor by his Uncle Ben. Instead, an omniscient narrative voice was employed: 13 14

And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come–great responsibility!

In conclusion, based on current knowledge QI would ascribe the saying to the writer of the 1793 passage, but QI does not know the precise identity of this writer. Also, it is certainly possible that earlier close matches will be discovered by future researchers.

In addition, major figures such as Lord Melbourne, Winston Churchill, and Franklin D. Roosevelt employed versions of the adage. The creators of Spider-Man, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, were important vectors for the popularization of the saying

[BoyJones]

No mention of Toby Twirl 1956!

 

[Fox92]

Chris Hughton can win the league tonight.

[The Horse's Mouth]

Dwight Yorke seems to want a premier league club handed to him, he should follow the likes of Chris Powell, Ince and JFH in going down the divisions and working yourself up, if he's actually serious about being a coach. 

[Merging Cultures]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

 

With respect, guys, isn't that part of the problem?

 

Racism, or even perceived racism, has become such a taboo that we feel we can't discuss it any more, and if we do it's like walking on eggshells; ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

I'm just bored of the same discussion!! We just had a debate about race recently. And for many reasons, I think it is extremely important to discuss, but it is actually quite tiring and frustrating. I am glad people feel they can ask the question, but then in the debates there are some people who seem to be beyond reason and empathy. I guess I am just quite exhausted after a hard week and reading some of the comments on here just got me a little annoyed!

[Nick]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

wow so racist

 

[Buce]

49 minutes ago, Merging Cultures said:

I'm just bored of the same discussion!! We just had a debate about race recently. And for many reasons, I think it is extremely important to discuss, but it is actually quite tiring and frustrating. I am glad people feel they can ask the question, but then in the debates there are some people who seem to be beyond reason and empathy. I guess I am just quite exhausted after a hard week and reading some of the comments on here just got me a little annoyed!

 

Yeah, I get that, MC.

 

However, it was topical, and I thought it warranted discussion. And I don't feel we should avoid it just because it brings out the pond life - that way they win.

[Vacamion]

 

John Barnes, when managing Celtic, lost the confidence of his players, who, in the end, appeared not to know what they were doing.  They suffered a defeat against a side which was at that time a minnow and it sparked an immortal headline.

 

Barnes is widely regarded as one of Celtic's worst ever managers (it's some tough competition when you have Tony Mobray and Lou Macari on the list).

 

Barnes then repeated the trick at Tranmere, during the infamous "Dumb and Dumber" reign with Jason McAteer. Barnes was deservedly sacked after losing the confidence of the team (that's who coined the nickname) and failing again.

 

It's fair to say that John Barnes has been given opportunities and blown them, because he was not up to the job of manager.

 

However, he keeps popping up on my TV saying that he didn't get the chances he deserved as a manager or the interviews for top management jobs because of ingrained racism throughout the upper echelons of the game.

 

Now, I don't know about the rest of football. I can't speak for all the other situations in which race may have played a role in denying people opportunities and there is a wider discussion to be had.

 

I also acknowledge that Barnes suffered horrendous racism as a player.

 

However, Barnes implying that he isn't a top manager because of racism rather than because he was an incompetent failure as a manager can only damage the arguments made by anyone who genuinely has been affected by racism when applying for manager roles.

 

It's a real "boy who cried wolf" situation.

 

I'm staggered that Barnes isn't self aware enough to acknowledge his own failings and to recognise the damage he is doing by making such arguments.

 

[Col city fan]

Aren't people missing the point a bit here? The major part of Yorke's gripe is that black applicants aren't even being given an interview. I.e. Not even shortlisted. 

IF the two sets of CV's are similar and still the black applicant is not interviewed, then this IS an issue isn't it?

I'm exactly the same as Thrac on this. When I shortlist people, it's on their application forms/CV's alone. Colour doesn't even enter my mind. Literally.

[yorkie1999]

Well i wouldn't give him an interview either, not because of the colour of his skin, but because he refuses to see his disabled son and denied he was even his until the results of a dna test proved otherwise.

[sylofox]

This coloured/racist thing is getting beyond a joke. It's all a little to one sided and I'm no racist.

 

Last Sunday in Norwich bus station I got on the Yarmouth bus.

 

A group of about 10 coloured lads come up screaming shouting and play fighting with each other. As they try to get on the bus.

 

Driver " Calm down please lads"

 

Lad 1 "why what's up"

Driver " unless you all calm down your not coming on the bus"

 

Lad 2 "you fvcking white boys need to watch your attitude"

 

Driver " lose the attitude or your not getting on"

 

Lad 2 "you fvcking white scum you wanna come out here"

 

But hey it seems racism is ok if your coloured and giving it out. These people need to realise it works both ways.

[Dr The Singh]

36 minutes ago, sylofox said:

This coloured/racist thing is getting beyond a joke. It's all a little to one sided and I'm no racist.

 

Last Sunday in Norwich bus station I got on the Yarmouth bus.

 

A group of about 10 coloured lads come up screaming shouting and play fighting with each other. As they try to get on the bus.

 

Driver " Calm down please lads"

 

Lad 1 "why what's up"

Driver " unless you all calm down your not coming on the bus"

 

Lad 2 "you fvcking white boys need to watch your attitude"

 

Driver " lose the attitude or your not getting on"

 

Lad 2 "you fvcking white scum you wanna come out here"

 

But hey it seems racism is ok if your coloured and giving it out. These people need to realise it works both ways.

I can't remember anyone on here saying racism again at whites is ok?  Am i missing something?

 

I think we all except racism isn't a white thing it's in all races.  It's just we live in a majority white nation hence racism against minorities tends to be more prevalent.

[foxy boxing]

it is not just a lack of black managers but also Asians and women in high roles within football as well as other minorities. football is still seen by many as just for aging white men and attitudes while changing are not changing quick enough. there needs to be more diversity in the boardroom and around the clubs and training grounds. it should be about how hard someone is prepared to work and how much effort they are willing to put into a football club and not about whether their face fits or not!

[Buce]

50 minutes ago, sylofox said:

This coloured/racist thing is getting beyond a joke. It's all a little to one sided and I'm no racist.

 

Last Sunday in Norwich bus station I got on the Yarmouth bus.

 

A group of about 10 coloured lads come up screaming shouting and play fighting with each other. As they try to get on the bus.

 

Driver " Calm down please lads"

 

Lad 1 "why what's up"

Driver " unless you all calm down your not coming on the bus"

 

Lad 2 "you fvcking white boys need to watch your attitude"

 

Driver " lose the attitude or your not getting on"

 

Lad 2 "you fvcking white scum you wanna come out here"

 

But hey it seems racism is ok if your coloured and giving it out. These people need to realise it works both ways.

 

What was the outcome?

 

 

[boots60]

1 hour ago, sylofox said:

This coloured/racist thing is getting beyond a joke. It's all a little to one sided and I'm no racist.

 

Last Sunday in Norwich bus station I got on the Yarmouth bus.

 

A group of about 10 coloured lads come up screaming shouting and play fighting with each other. As they try to get on the bus.

 

Driver " Calm down please lads"

 

Lad 1 "why what's up"

Driver " unless you all calm down your not coming on the bus"

 

Lad 2 "you fvcking white boys need to watch your attitude"

 

Driver " lose the attitude or your not getting on"

 

Lad 2 "you fvcking white scum you wanna come out here"

 

But hey it seems racism is ok if your coloured and giving it out. These people need to realise it works both ways.

10 coloured lads

In Norwich

Were they lost?

 

[ozleicester]

The term ‘positive discrimination’ is sometimes used to refer to ‘positive measures’ or ‘special measures’. Special measures aim to foster greater equality by supporting groups of people who face, or have faced, entrenched discrimination so they can have similar access to opportunities as others in the community.

[Merging Cultures]

50 minutes ago, boots60 said:

10 coloured lads

In Norwich

Were they lost?

 

Local painters and decorators just finishing work i assume.

[Corky]

Football management in this country is difficult to get into. Look at Birmingham- sack one manager, appoint a new one the next day. No interviews, no shortlist, they found a man they wanted and contacted almost straight away. There are 92 jobs available and with the amount of current managers moving around, seemingly retired ones being given new jobs and more managers from outside this country being appointed then the choice is greater for a limited number of roles.

 

I feel for Yorke if he's not getting interviews but, to be honest, it's not that different from other lines of work- if you haven't got the experience you stand little chance-  companies look for those with ready-made, proven skills and knowledge. Of course, getting that experience is tough and you can't exactly do voluntary work as a first-team football coach so I don't know what the solution is.

 

Clubs looking outside the box and taking a risk would help but with the money involved it's not going to be widespread. 92 current managers, others recently out-of-work, many younger coaches possibly looking for an opportunity, it's a crowded field for a fairly limited chance.

[sylofox]

1 hour ago, Dr The Singh said:

I can't remember anyone on here saying racism again at whites is ok?  Am i missing something?

 

I think we all except racism isn't a white thing it's in all races.  It's just we live in a majority white nation hence racism against minorities tends to be more prevalent.

im not saying anyone on here has. My point was some people try to make things look racist when they are not. The one lad turned it into that when it never was.

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

What was the outcome?

 

 

The rest got on the bus and behaved. The other lad had to go and catch a train.

[Facecloth]

47 minutes ago, Corky said:

Football management in this country is difficult to get into. Look at Birmingham- sack one manager, appoint a new one the next day. No interviews, no shortlist, they found a man they wanted and contacted almost straight away. There are 92 jobs available and with the amount of current managers moving around, seemingly retired ones being given new jobs and more managers from outside this country being appointed then the choice is greater for a limited number of roles.

 

I feel for Yorke if he's not getting interviews but, to be honest, it's not that different from other lines of work- if you haven't got the experience you stand little chance-  companies look for those with ready-made, proven skills and knowledge. Of course, getting that experience is tough and you can't exactly do voluntary work as a first-team football coach so I don't know what the solution is.

 

Clubs looking outside the box and taking a risk would help but with the money involved it's not going to be widespread. 92 current managers, others recently out-of-work, many younger coaches possibly looking for an opportunity, it's a crowded field for a fairly limited chance.

A lot of managers get into it by coaching and then stepping up when the managers leaves, so that's your foot in the door, Yorke has to do that, like the recently passed Ugo Ehiogu was doing. 

 

Its how Shakespeare got a managers job, and Pearson before him. It's how Chris Hughton got there, it's Steve McLaren got there, it's how of all people Sir Alex Ferguson got there. You've got to put yourself in a position to be considered, do the work don't expect it to land on your lap. All this talk of not bothering doing badges because they think they won't get a job and then complaining they don't get a job is just adding to the perceived injustice that might not be occurring if they actually tried. Yorke needs to be the change he wants to see. Make it hard for people not to consider you, don't do nothing and make it easy for the to ignore you.

 

Also, if there is racism in football, not every club is run by racists. If say 10 if the 92 league clubs are, that's still 82 that would happily employ you, so go out get qualified and do well. If then the other 10 still refuse to even entertain the prospect of employing you, there might be an argument.

[Jattdogg]

Always has the option to look for a role outside  of the uk. Football is one of those sports where you got to be willing to work wherever to earn your stripes. If thats in the usl in America  or some bush league  in new zealand then suck it up buttercup. That applies to people of all races, colours, background etc.

 

Do i think non-whites tend to not get a fair look?  Yes it happens. I think biases still exist no doubt ( racial, sexual orientation etc).

 

As a mixed race person myself my parents always said to not let anyone hold me down. Find a way to get where you want to be. Work hard and dont ask for sympathy to get there. If you are truly persistent you will find what you are looking for one day.

[Facecloth]

Regarding Yorke, the highest level of coaching badge I can find he has is Level 3 B. So this is off UEFA website:

 

The UEFA Pyramid:

• Level 5, UEFA Pro Licence (focus on how to manage)
  A mandatory qualification for managing in the FA Premier League and UEFA competitions.
  Most candidates complete in 12 months
• Level 4, UEFA A Licence (focus on phases of play, 9v9 games and 11v11 match play)
  Work as a manager/coach in the professional game, or Academy Manager.
  Most candidates complete within 2 years.
• Level 3, UEFA B Licence (focus on functions, phases of play and 8v8 games)
  Find work in Centres of Excellence and Academies.
  You have 2 years, but can usually be completed in 12-18 months
• Level 2, Certificate in Coaching Football (focus on how we coach, play, support and the future player)
  Find work in Football in the Community, local authorities, US soccer camps.
  You have 3 years to complete, but it can be achieved in 6 months. PFA members can start their coaching pathway at this tier.
• Level 1
  Useful for local community work, and can be completed in a few weeks. Not a mandatory qualification, but a gentle introduction.

 

So it seems Yorke has done a bit, but not enough to officially be allowed to manage a premier league club (I know exception have been made for clubs when promoting managers from within). He's got to level 3 and wants a level 1 job. Get off your arse Dwight and finish the course. Why should you get favourable treatment and skip two levels of training?

 

[Thracian]

On 21/04/2017 at 10:02, Thracian said:

And what would you do? Somehow stand as more worthy to decide who should manage their club than they are? Get a club of your own by all means and apply such theories. You'll be choosing people's wives next. As the man who has no prejudice I presume and only has behavioural ideas and attitudes to be commended  and supported by all.     

 

[Dr The Singh]

7 hours ago, sylofox said:

im not saying anyone on here has. My point was some people try to make things look racist when they are not. The one lad turned it into that when it never was.

The rest got on the bus and behaved. The other lad had to go and catch a train.

Sylo, in my life those subjected to racial abuse far away the abuse of the pretentiousnest.

 

 In fact in my younger daughter has just told me all the abuse she has been suffering since last September, I'm fooking, fuming.

 

[Steven]

8 hours ago, Merging Cultures said:

Local painters and decorators just finishing work i assume.

They each had ten fingers and ten toes. Nothing local about them.