Puel's BIG problem is obvious. His HOME results are RELEGATION results

[Finnegan]

13 minutes ago, ScouseFox said:

when you look at who those games were against as well it becomes really depressing. cardiff, burnley, newcastle, stoke, swansea, west ham (twice) southampton (twice) and probably a load of other garbage teams have all come here and not been beaten, with a decent chunk of them taking wins. 

 

there is something hella wrong with our home form. 

 

Precisely this. 

 

I hear a lot that we're eighth and that that's amazing but you've only got to take three of our most appalling results of the season and turn them in to wins and suddenly we're a point or two off fifth. 

 

I don't consider seventh or eighth amazing. Credible, definitely, Ranieri and Shakespeare both nearly took us down with similar resources. Puel has done much better than they wound up doing, shall we say, post-Ngolo. And he's done it without Riyad. 

 

But not exceptional, we're surrounded by other bang average teams in a bang average league and that's what we are. Exceptional means breaking clear of the other dross and securing a comfortable Europa League spot. 

 

The idea that Puel is bullet proof because he's got us sat between Watford and West Ham is just silly. Especially when he's consistently lost games to the weakest opposition in the division whilst allegedly being a manager to develop a passing, possession based side meant to beat these teams. 

 

I think part of the problem that we have as a fan base when it comes to judging a manager at the moment is that there's an extremely tiny window between realistic and acceptable in terms of league position. There's seventh, eighth and ninth as a tiny little gap of tolerance. Anything more isn't really possible with this squad and anything less is shambolic. 

 

It means it doesn't really tell us a great deal when we're sat there. 

 

But performances do and that's where I lose some of the most passionate and blind defenders of CP and why I lean towards out. I just don't understand how people can watch this rubbish and say its progressing.

 

I think it was @ttfn that made the point that as good as the results at Man City and Chelsea were, Puel was brought in to help us beat the likes of Cardiff and Southampton at home and he can't escape judgment on that just because we've won impressive underdog games on the counter. 

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

27 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I’m not sure clamouring is correct. People just perhaps don’t want to see any more 4231! I was pleased he went 433 yesterday though I hoped they’d be trying to play it higher up the pitch and in the second half the possession was good but with 3 defensive mids and later only two we just don’t have anything in midfield to make either of his systems work beyond counter attacking fast break football. It’s really sad but unless the manager comes up with players to make this work or a different approach / philosophy he’s a dead man walking.

I was pleased with it too. But the players just put in a doggo performance first half. As in a shockingly bad performance. Shitter of the year

[FilbertFrog]

Maybe we need to up the atmosphere ! 

 

Its a little boring in the stands as well at present 

[ScouseFox]

6 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Precisely this. 

 

I hear a lot that we're eighth and that that's amazing but you've only got to take three of our most appalling results of the season and turn them in to wins and suddenly we're a point or two off fifth. 

 

I don't consider seventh or eighth amazing. Credible, definitely, Ranieri and Shakespeare both nearly took us down with similar resources. Puel has done much better than they wound up doing, shall we say, post-Ngolo. And he's done it without Riyad. 

 

But not exceptional, we're surrounded by other bang average teams in a bang average league and that's what we are. Exceptional means breaking clear of the other dross and securing a comfortable Europa League spot. 

 

The idea that Puel is bullet proof because he's got us sat between Watford and West Ham is just silly. Especially when he's consistently lost games to the weakest opposition in the division whilst allegedly being a manager to develop a passing, possession based side meant to beat these teams. 

 

I think part of the problem that we have as a fan base when it comes to judging a manager at the moment is that there's an extremely tiny window between realistic and acceptable in terms of league position. There's seventh, eighth and ninth as a tiny little gap of tolerance. Anything more isn't really possible with this squad and anything less is shambolic. 

 

It means it doesn't really tell us a great deal when we're sat there. 

 

But performances do and that's where I lose some of the most passionate and blind defenders of CP and why I lean towards out. I just don't understand how people can watch this rubbish and say its progressing.

 

I think it was @ttfn that made the point that as good as the results at Man City and Chelsea were, Puel was brought in to help us beat the likes of Cardiff and Southampton at home and he can't escape judgment on that just because we've won impressive underdog games on the counter. 

 

yeah pretty much. 

 

we are constantly told the whole point of puel is to make us possession based so we can break down teams sat deep, yet i’m not sure we’ve ever beaten a team who sits in against us since he was hired? 

 

like you said pretty much all of our wins are when we revert back to a style he supposedly doesn’t want to play, which really does beg the question what is the point of him being here? 

[Blanchflower78]

28 minutes ago, Paddy. said:

So how would you have changed the style but kept the personnel the same? Genuine question.

Personnel needs to work around the style. That may mean it's adaptable and therefore you don't change it alongside the formation shift or approach to a certain team. 

The problem is after losing to both cardiff and saints it's very easy to criticise after BUT I genuinely had reservations about both. Guys I sit with will tell you on both occasions I felt we needed a greater threat higher up the pitch. For cardiff I said pre match is go 442, again, I don't feel nacho is right for us but him and Vardy would have given us a greater presence higher up and let's be honest were now led to believe you can't play 2 strikers nowadays so something Warnock wouldn't have prepared for. 

As for yesterday I said on here Simmo at rb, Ricardo pushed forward, Madders in with ndidi in a 4 and Barnes thrown in to play behind Vardy. They were there for the taking and we simply allowed the game to pass us by. 

Second half, why play wes and Harry at the back. Both Ricardo and chilwell were slinging crosses in, they had 10 men? 

 

Make no mistake yesterday was a new low. At full strength they are not great, remove 4 of their best players and they are poor. Add to that they played for 55 minutes with a man less and still scored again. We simply had no ideas. For me though the game was lost in the first 40 mins before the red. They were always going to sit back deeper thereafter but we missed the initiative to start with.

 

Just my view.

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

We’re 8th in a bang average division, bar the top 6 it’s pretty mediocre stuff, Puel is an average manager, doing an average job in an average league.

 

His City stats confirm it

P62 W23 D17 L22

 

 

 

[Arriba Los Zorros]

44 minutes ago, hamptonfox said:

Claude Puel Premier League Manager Southampton 2016/17.

 

Home Record.

Won 6

Drew 6

Lost 7

Points 24

 

Home Game record 17th best that season, one place off relegation.

 

Southampton Away Form  6-4-9, 7th best in the Division.

 

This is near identical to what he has done at Leicester over the last calendar year.

 

Question: DOES CLAUDE PUEL KNOW HOW TO PLAY HOME GAMES IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE?

 

Two years Stats for two different clubs, says NO he doesn't  and he consistently produces near relegation form at Home.

 

That, in a nutshell, is why the majority of fans of both clubs have never grown to like his football  The diehard home and away fans probably give him more credit, because they see 6 or 7 away wins a year,  which on its own is top 8 form.

Spot on. To blow my own trumpet, I've been saying for ages he can't set up a team to win at home and it will always hamper him. I remember Saints fans saying if they played all games away from home he'd still be in a job and it's panning out the same here.

 

Luckily the penny's starting to drop and he'll be gone soon.

[whoareyaaa]

Vichia wanted us to be a top 5 club, maybe if we had won some games we should be expecting to take points from we wouldn't be that far away from Arsenal.

 

People saying we need time, stability, transition etc. its all a load of bollox basically.

 

We have the players who are good enough now, just the manager doesn't know how to get the best out of him.

 

Sack now, rejuvenate the squad and push for a Euopa league spot.

[whoareyaaa]

19 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Precisely this. 

 

I hear a lot that we're eighth and that that's amazing but you've only got to take three of our most appalling results of the season and turn them in to wins and suddenly we're a point or two off fifth. 

 

I don't consider seventh or eighth amazing. Credible, definitely, Ranieri and Shakespeare both nearly took us down with similar resources. Puel has done much better than they wound up doing, shall we say, post-Ngolo. And he's done it without Riyad. 

 

But not exceptional, we're surrounded by other bang average teams in a bang average league and that's what we are. Exceptional means breaking clear of the other dross and securing a comfortable Europa League spot. 

 

The idea that Puel is bullet proof because he's got us sat between Watford and West Ham is just silly. Especially when he's consistently lost games to the weakest opposition in the division whilst allegedly being a manager to develop a passing, possession based side meant to beat these teams. 

 

I think part of the problem that we have as a fan base when it comes to judging a manager at the moment is that there's an extremely tiny window between realistic and acceptable in terms of league position. There's seventh, eighth and ninth as a tiny little gap of tolerance. Anything more isn't really possible with this squad and anything less is shambolic. 

 

It means it doesn't really tell us a great deal when we're sat there. 

 

But performances do and that's where I lose some of the most passionate and blind defenders of CP and why I lean towards out. I just don't understand how people can watch this rubbish and say its progressing.

 

I think it was @ttfn that made the point that as good as the results at Man City and Chelsea were, Puel was brought in to help us beat the likes of Cardiff and Southampton at home and he can't escape judgment on that just because we've won impressive underdog games on the counter. 

 

didn't see your post before posting mine but I think we are right.

[Finnegan]

19 minutes ago, ScouseFox said:

yeah pretty much. 

 

we are constantly told the whole point of puel is to make us possession based so we can break down teams sat deep, yet i’m not sure we’ve ever beaten a team who sits in against us since he was hired? 

 

like you said pretty much all of our wins are when we revert back to a style he supposedly doesn’t want to play, which really does beg the question what is the point of him being here? 

 

Probably the only result that springs to mind where we comfortably beat a relegation threatened side at home was Huddersfield and they were naive beyond belief. High line, came at us, we scored two goals on the counter attack. Old school. 

 

 

[whoareyaaa]

34 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I was pleased with it too. But the players just put in a doggo performance first half. As in a shockingly bad performance. Shitter of the year

we can't keep blaming the players, slow starts come from the manager and what he wants them to do and how he wants them to play then we get hit with a goal and its massive struggle to get back in the game as team will park the bus even more than they would at 0-0.

 

This leads to players having to come on to change the game and the plan is out the window, we are also then open to a team counter attacking us as we look to get back in the game.

 

its shit.

 

 

 

[Tuna]

We just haven't got the skill and nous to break teams down at home. We're too easy to play against and teams know how to set up against us. 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

Just now, whoareyaaa said:

we can't keep blaming the players, slow starts come from the manager and what he wants them to do and how he wants them to play then we get hit with a goal and its massive struggle to get back in the game as team will park the bus even more than they would at 0-0.

 

 

 

I thought Puel said himself that these slow starts were an issue? 

 

I agree its a problem but i dont know why it happens. I assumed it was our players tbh. I cant really lay it at Puel's feet until after another transfer window

[Tielemans63]

25 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Precisely this. 

 

I hear a lot that we're eighth and that that's amazing but you've only got to take three of our most appalling results of the season and turn them in to wins and suddenly we're a point or two off fifth. 

 

I don't consider seventh or eighth amazing. Credible, definitely, Ranieri and Shakespeare both nearly took us down with similar resources. Puel has done much better than they wound up doing, shall we say, post-Ngolo. And he's done it without Riyad. 

 

But not exceptional, we're surrounded by other bang average teams in a bang average league and that's what we are. Exceptional means breaking clear of the other dross and securing a comfortable Europa League spot. 

 

The idea that Puel is bullet proof because he's got us sat between Watford and West Ham is just silly. Especially when he's consistently lost games to the weakest opposition in the division whilst allegedly being a manager to develop a passing, possession based side meant to beat these teams. 

 

I think part of the problem that we have as a fan base when it comes to judging a manager at the moment is that there's an extremely tiny window between realistic and acceptable in terms of league position. There's seventh, eighth and ninth as a tiny little gap of tolerance. Anything more isn't really possible with this squad and anything less is shambolic. 

 

It means it doesn't really tell us a great deal when we're sat there. 

 

But performances do and that's where I lose some of the most passionate and blind defenders of CP and why I lean towards out. I just don't understand how people can watch this rubbish and say its progressing.

 

I think it was @ttfn that made the point that as good as the results at Man City and Chelsea were, Puel was brought in to help us beat the likes of Cardiff and Southampton at home and he can't escape judgment on that just because we've won impressive underdog games on the counter. 

 

I agree with the vast majority of this. Good points all round.

 

The only difference is that I lean more to Puel in than Puel out because I don't see any viable alternative (currently) and I'm very much in favour of building a youthful side. Also, as you said, we're realistically aiming for between 7th and 9th and as we're currently 8th and have been top 10 more or less all season, I'm satisfied.  Totally accept that home performances have been mind-numbing though and this has to change. I guess the difference between me and many of our fans is that I'd like to see Puel given more time to affect that change.

 

I think he deserves that time because I'm not altogether convinced that the poor home form is solely down to him. Of course, tactics have left a lot to be desired, I don't question that.

 

However, we can't just ignore the events of 27th of October and the psychological impact that has had on the players. Maybe they are using those events as an excuse but equally, maybe playing at home is more difficult now than it was before tragedy struck.

 

Prior to the crash we'd lost twice at home, to Liverpool and Everton. The Liverpool result was understandable and we deserved more against Everton after Morgan's red. Before that we'd beaten Wolves and Huddersfield and drew with West Ham. Not amazing but hardly disastrous.

 

Since then it's not happened for us at home but away results have been very good. This would suggest that there might be something of a psychological barrier when we play at home which admittedly is compounded by occasionally baffling tactics.

 

There are a number of things that do my head in about Puel but I don't believe the guy deserves to lose his job right now. Not when he managed the post-tragedy period so well and not when there are very few ifany alternatives who are clearly better and available right now.

 

[shade]

1 hour ago, Blanchflower78 said:

Choudhury, mendy and ndidi provide decent protection when up against better sides. That's fine, it's served us well by and large.

However, as a home side when up against weaker sides there is an onus to be on the front foot. You have home advantage, 30k fans supporting you and a pitch you know well. 

This is where the problem lies. We carry no threat, have 1 recognised striker of note whom both he and we as supporters know is not comfortable with this style. That doesn't mean you change to appease him but with no quality or trust to add it's as good as it gets.  The KP has served us well over the years, many citing it as a difficult place to go whoever you are. The threat has gone from us, a style has squeezed out our intent to 'want' to be the dominant side.

 

Not an anti Puel rant just common sense.

I honestly don’t think any strikers would be comfortable with this style except maybe crouch, and that’s a legit opinion.

[SuperMike]

1 hour ago, siraaj_lcfc said:

Claude Puel doesn't have a Problem. 

Claude Puel IS THE PROBLEM

100 PERCENT THIS!

[Stadt]

Bored of qualifying statements at the start of each of my posts about him, I’m not a fan of his but the reality of the situation is that we’ll have Stowell in charge for two weeks and appoint somebody massively uninspiring. There’ll be a slight uptick in form but our season fizzles and we’re back in the boom and bust cycle of sacking managers.

 

Puel is:

- poor at attack coaching 

- cautious 

- boring 

 

However, he’s also:

- improved our defence

- built a young, high potential side

- is a long term builder 

- undemanding and therefore less expensive 

 

When you consider we’re spending big money on infrastructure we’re going to have to take the rough with the smooth because the club hierarchy will be content with stability.

 

I wish we weren’t shit at home and I wish we weren’t boring but that’s the trade off for investing in a more sustainable premier league position.

 

I think a medium term solution is for Puel  to be less stubborn and get a coach on board who is capable of coaching attack’s because we’re so unstructured and bereft of ideas.

[shade]

1 minute ago, Stadt said:

Bored of qualifying statements at the start of each of my posts about him, I’m not a fan of his but the reality of the situation is that we’ll have Stowell in charge for two weeks and appoint somebody massively uninspiring. There’ll be a slight uptick in form but our season fizzles and we’re back in the boom and bust cycle of sacking managers.

 

Puel is:

- poor at attack coaching 

- cautious 

- boring 

 

However, he’s also:

- improved our defence

- built a young, high potential side

- is a long term builder 

- undemanding and therefore less expensive 

 

When you consider we’re spending big money on infrastructure we’re going to have to take the rough with the smooth because the club hierarchy will be content with stability.

 

I wish we weren’t shit at home and I wish we weren’t boring but that’s the trade off for investing in a more sustainable premier league position.

 

I think a medium term solution is for Puel  to be less stubborn and get a coach on board who is capable of coaching attack’s because we’re so unstructured and bereft of ideas.

fair assessment, I think that’s what makes it more frustrating, we’re not that far from it all falling in to place 

[Hammo]

20 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Probably the only result that springs to mind where we comfortably beat a relegation threatened side at home was Huddersfield and they were naive beyond belief. High line, came at us, we scored two goals on the counter attack. Old school. 

 

 

Even then, if you recall, we went a goal down and were utterly dreadful in the first half.

 

Puel has repeatedly proved himself incapable of masterminding a convincing 90-minute performance at home to a team that set out to defend. His tactics fail time and time again yet he stubbornly, arrogantly persists with them - one isolated, double-marked striker; cautious, harmless circulation of the ball from side to side; no incision or quick one-twos through the middle; endless aimless crosses into a hive of big, aerially-dominant defenders (including corners); two or three shots on target per game max!

 

We must be the easiest team in the Premier League for visiting sides to defend against because... we are so bloody ponderous and predictable.

 

And until or unless Puel acknowledges and addresses that, we will continue to struggle in these games.

 

The other option of course is we stop tolerating his ineptitude and get rid of him.

[Hammo]

24 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I thought Puel said himself that these slow starts were an issue? 

 

I agree its a problem but i dont know why it happens. I assumed it was our players tbh. I cant really lay it at Puel's feet until after another transfer window

Have you considered a communication/motivation problem on the part of the manager?

[Vestan Pance]

Ok so the away form is very good and home form alone sees us sitting in 12th position, but if we look at the away vs home tables for this season, it looks like lots of others teams are battling this home form problem. 

I'm not saying we should be happy with the way things are but this league has started to stagnate in terms of entertainment with pretty much 14 teams battling hards for those away points and setting up to counter attack, how else would we have those away wins? 

We may be an extreme case but struggling for home form vs away form isn't unique to us atm.

[st albans fox]

If we are going to struggle at home then we need to adopt the ‘great escape’ approach to home games against the non top six 

 

three at the back and attempt to steamroller the opposition .......yes, it may make us vulnerable to counters and we will concede more but we will also score more ....... and the fans will be happier drawing a game 3-3 than losing 2-1 to ten men .....or drawing 0-0

 

The manager has nothing to lose by adopting this ...... I don’t think he has it in his locker through ..... 

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

2 minutes ago, Hammo said:

Have you considered a communication/motivation problem on the part of the manager?

I guess its possible. But ive also considered Mendy and Ndidi have no creativity and we dont have any centre midfielders who are good enough to displace them.

As ive said. If we go through another summer window and still havent fixed this issue I can confidently blame Puel.  Right now its not obvious its his faul specifically, especially as we had this problem before he came

[st albans fox]

Just now, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I guess its possible. But ive also considered Mendy and Ndidi have no creativity and we dont have any centre midfielders who are good enough to displace them.

As ive said. If we go through another summer window and still havent fixed this issue I can confidently blame Puel.  Right now its not obvious its his faul specifically, especially as we had this problem before he came

Holding midfielder s aren’t necessarily supposed to be creative ...... but when you are playing against ten and need a goal or two then just take them both off .........

 

his tactics second half yesterday were at best questionable and at worse naive .........

[RowlattsFox]

I don’t think the way Puel wants to play at home is necessarily wrong, it’s just we need to be better at it. He wants to control games but we don’t because we’re liable to a mistake which leads to a goal and then we’re chasing against a team that’s got something to protect. We’ve proven we’re we’re unable to do this. Problem is we’ve been saying this for a while with no signs of improvement. 

 

Too slow with passimg and movement is pretty woeful. Extreme example by Man City play against packed defences all the time but their midfielders can play forward passes and they interchange positions. We are unbelievably static. 

 

We can say we want to play counter atacking football all we want but that’ll make no difference at home, teams don’t let us do that unless we catch them out from a corner. 

 

We miss Okazaki’s ability to win the ball higher up the pitch, Maddison doesn’t do that side of the game and vardy likes to point and direct these days. 

 

Start quick and get fans involved, so flat yesterday.