VAR

[Guest foxestalkisfullofidiots]

It’s almost enough to make you hope we don’t get promotion 

 

VAR inside the stadium watching your own team is horrendous, the problem is it’s brilliant to watch when sat on the sofa at home, you couldn’t take your eyes off the Chelsea/Spurs game

 

 

[Les-TA-Jon]

1 hour ago, ALC Fox said:

Always felt that as red cards are being looked at then second yellows should also be looked at because a second yellow card is a red card offence.

 

But it needs to improve massively. Semi-automated offsides should do that but corners, etc. might be a step too far.

 

I'd be happy with just goal-line tech and then VAR for offsides and that's it. The rest is subjective and mistakes can either be made on the pitch or in the VAR room so just let the game flow and keep the majority of decisions with the ref and assistants.

But then you'd need a VAR check on every single yellow card, because the 1st yellow card is just as influential to '2 yellows = 1 red' 

Then once you follow that logic, shouldn't all fouls be VAR checked to see if they should be yellows? 

It's pandora's box. 

 

 

[fox in the sox]

I think because the VAR is also refereeing other matches they are getting confused. The penalty at the end should not have been overturned because it was a soft penalty at best. But I think the VAR is thinking as if they are refereeing the match, hence they decide it might be worth the referee looking again, rather than thinking if it’s a clear and obvious mistake.

[Sampson]

8 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

But then you'd need a VAR check on every single yellow card, because the 1st yellow card is just as influential to '2 yellows = 1 red' 

Then once you follow that logic, shouldn't all fouls be VAR checked to see if they should be yellows? 

It's pandora's box. 

 

 

Yep. It won’t take long until a second yellow is given by VAR in an instance where that decision is a clear yellow but when the first yellow was given unfairly and should not have been a yellow, which VAR can’t check for. At that point people realise it’s a ludicrous idea. VAR for 2 yellows only works if you can check both yellows, and that ultimately means checking every single foul or tackle to see if was a yellow or not. 

Edited 28 November 2023 by Sampson

[Robo61]

1 hour ago, 5waller5 said:

The timed window for the use of an appeal, and limited number of unsuccessful appeals would make VAR more a part of the team game though. 
 

With cricket there are fielders particularly good at viewing marginal decisions who are consulted by the captain, an umpire’s potential mistake relies on the skill of the team to spot.

 

Currently VAR is just incompetent and disconnected from the game. Appeals, whilst at risk of being just another way to favour the big 6, may help to re-connect the game to the teams and fans?

Again football is such a different game in this respect.  Fielders are standing pretty still watching every moment of every ball bowled,  captains are standing very close.  In football players are running around trying to find space rather than concentrating on what is happening with the ball or other players,  captains can be over 50yds from the action. 

 

I remain of the view that VAR will only work well for line decisions,  and even then spoils the game for those watching live until such these can be made automatic using technology only.   We should simply except that referees are human and expect that wrong decisions are part of the game.  We except it of Managers and particulalrly players so why not referees.  Seems to me VAR is just sanitising the game.

[Super_horns]

1 hour ago, Robo61 said:

But that would only work for offsides,  ball over the line etc where you are pretty much dealing in facts,  it would be no better than what we have now when subjective decisions are involved. In fact it has the potential for being worse as the powerful managers from the top teams would exert even more pressure on referee's.

Exactly - and most things in cricket like tennis and rugby are factual rather than subjective as in football .

 

Would it be certain the decisions will get better and more consistent,

[Les-TA-Jon]

Not a fan of a challenge system. It shifts the onus onto Managers rather than the officials. Still results in things not being given. Creates weird situations where 'that would have gotten overturned, but they had run out of challenges' and also the way the game plays out live doesn't lend itself to challenges being made. 

 

Like look at the Diaz goal situation - even if Spurs Liverpool had a challenge to use in that situation, how would they have known to do so? Didn't they only find out it was dodgy after the game/at half time? 

Edited 28 November 2023 by Les-TA-Jon

[worth_the_wait]

1 hour ago, foxestalkisfullofidiots said:

It’s almost enough to make you hope we don’t get promotion 

 

VAR inside the stadium watching your own team is horrendous, the problem is it’s brilliant to watch when sat on the sofa at home, you couldn’t take your eyes off the Chelsea/Spurs game

 

 

 

Unfortunately, you've hit the nail on the head.   

 

VAR reduces football to a pantomime ... which is mildly amusing if you're sat at home not really bothered about the game, but destroys the game for the actual fans there.

 

Pantomime sequence:

 - Team A scores a goal.

 - Players and fans of team A celebrate.   Players and fans of team B disconsolate, and moaning about non-existent foul in the build-up

 - But wait ... VAR check in progress ... wait wait wait wait ...

 - Ref goes over to monitor ... replay replay replay replay ...

 - Goal disallowed

 - Players and fans of team A now dejected.   Players and fans of team B celebrate.     All back as we were ... no changed

 - 5 minutes later the game restarts. 

 

Take what has been the greatest sport in the world for 150 years and ruin it.

 

 

[Les-TA-Jon]

10 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

VAR reduces football to a pantomime ... which is mildly amusing if you're sat at home not really bothered about the game, but destroys the game for the actual fans there.

On 04/10/2023 at 13:52, Les-TA-Jon said:

Reality is, it's very hard to unwind the clock - it's very unlikely we go back to zero VAR. It's here to stay, in one form or another. 

 

Obviously the current form has its problems. But also those other sports that do use VAR have been doing so for much longer. Given the increased level of subjectivities in football and the shorter lifespan of VAR implementation, is it any wonder they haven't got it right yet? 

 

Pre-VAR 'key match decisions' were correct 82% of the time. With VAR, that has risen to approx 94%. 

 

The key thing to determine is: does the benefit of that 12 percentage points increase, outweigh the costs? 

 

The only 'true' cost of VAR is the loss of fully spontaneous and joyous celebrations of goals, which to many, is the essence of the entire sport. 

 

But the problem here, is that there's a multitude of stakeholders with competing motivations and objectives, and I think that cost only really applies to one group... 

• The PGMOL wants that number as high as possible, with as much help as possible from technology, as allowed by IFAB, and without undue undermining of on-field officials. 
• The media must secretly (or not so secretly) love VAR. It drives clicks, views and controversy. It's another thing to analyse and adds to the sense of drama and theatre
• 'Non-legacy' fans, TV only viewers, tourists and neutrals probably also like it, or aren't strongly opposed to it, because for them the sport is an entertainment & media product to be consumed; it's not about specific clubs or players
• Clubs are seemingly largely in favour of VAR, as it on the whole gives them better/more correct decision and does remove the true 'howler' moments. With VAR there will never be another 'hand of god' or Henry palming it moment
• 'Legacy' fans - those in the ground or with a genuine attachment to their clubs wherever and however they watch generally do not like VAR, because of the 'cost' previously described

So I just don't see where the groundswell of influence will come from to make any significant changes to it. 

 

Personally my implementation would be:

• Goal line tech
• Automated offsides
• VAR checks for goals, possible red cards, penalty incidents - but with a very high threshold for intervention

The problem is, football has many different stakeholders and VAR benefits most/all of them, apart from fans...

 

[brookfox]

Have to say I’m much preferring football without it.

 

Assuming it’s here to stay I’d make it a tool that’s there to aid the on pitch referee and not undermine them. If the ref wants a second opinion on his decision (eg any clear or obvious that goal shouldn’t stand?) then VAR gets 1min to review and if there’s nothing obvious (ie not drawing those stupid lines) then go with the original decision. If VAR spots a serious incident (eg red card or penalty) the ref has missed then the ref watches it on the screen and has a minute to decide if he wants to take action. Speeds things up and gives clearer accountability.

[Chelmofox]

22 minutes ago, brookfox said:

Have to say I’m much preferring football without it.

 

Assuming it’s here to stay I’d make it a tool that’s there to aid the on pitch referee and not undermine them. If the ref wants a second opinion on his decision (eg any clear or obvious that goal shouldn’t stand?) then VAR gets 1min to review and if there’s nothing obvious (ie not drawing those stupid lines) then go with the original decision. If VAR spots a serious incident (eg red card or penalty) the ref has missed then the ref watches it on the screen and has a minute to decide if he wants to take action. Speeds things up and gives clearer accountability.

The problem is that when its a debatable decision, and that minute is up, punditary will look at 10 different angles and then find the 1 that proves that Liverpool should have had a penalty, Klopp blows his top and the merry go round starts again.  None of this solves anything. Controversy has always been in football - we might as well embrace that with the human element. All we've done is move the controversy to a different system.

 

I'm so bored of it now. I think unless the decision is automated scrap it. Have goal line tech and the proper offside one used at the world cup, not the stupid lines thing we have ended up with. If a ground can't support the better offside tech, then switch it off for that game. Unless the automated decision can be made in near real time just dump it. 

[GingerrrFox]

Automatic VAR for offsides and goal line technology. Everything else should get put in the bin. 

[Number 6]

23 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

Automatic VAR for offsides and goal line technology. Everything else should get put in the bin. 

Agree the scope needs dramatically reducing. Would potentially throw in cases of mistaken identity too, though those are very rare.

[brookfox]

57 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

The problem is that when its a debatable decision, and that minute is up, punditary will look at 10 different angles and then find the 1 that proves that Liverpool should have had a penalty, Klopp blows his top and the merry go round starts again.  None of this solves anything. Controversy has always been in football - we might as well embrace that with the human element. All we've done is move the controversy to a different system.

 

I'm so bored of it now. I think unless the decision is automated scrap it. Have goal line tech and the proper offside one used at the world cup, not the stupid lines thing we have ended up with. If a ground can't support the better offside tech, then switch it off for that game. Unless the automated decision can be made in near real time just dump it. 

But making it time bound does two things; massively improves the in-stadium experience and mitigates the incorrect decisions somewhat (ie yes if someone in a studio spends 5 mins looking then yes you will spot errors). Personally I’d rather scrap it, but assuming it’s staying then just trying to find ways to make it better. Controversy will never go away (it’s part of the game and unless you’ve been royally done to we probably all quite like it!), it’s trying to find ways for VAR to minimise it and not add to it.

[Jobyfox]

My opinion on VAR and how to improve it has not changed for a little while now. 
 

1.The bar is “clear and obvious” and that’s where it should be set and intervention should only be in the vast minority of cases.

 

2. A new measure of “referee’s call” should be implemented. If it’s not “clear and obvious”, but there is some debate, the VAR officials should just stick with the on field decision. A bit like “umpires call” in cricket they are stating that it’s not reached the threshold to intervene. 
 

3.If it genuinely is “clear and obvious” then the VAR official makes the call. This would end the ridiculous spectacle of seeing the referee trot over to look at pitch side monitors. If the VAR officials decide that it’s reached the threshold then just make the call. The current system doesn’t work anyway as there is rarely a referee brave enough to stick with the on field decision. 
 

The above is all about minimum intervention, keeping the game moving, but keeping the protection against the obvious error. It was never intended that the game would be refereed in a TV studio 

[KansasFox]

7 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

Agree the scope needs dramatically reducing. Would potentially throw in cases of mistaken identity too, though those are very rare.

And yet fifa group meeting today to discuss potentially extending VAR powers to fouls and corners... and here in lies the problem. The people in power are totally disconnected from the wishes of the fans (or don't care).

[GingerrrFox]

The problem is an overwhelming majority of decisions are subjective. The problem with subjective decision making is no matter the technology available you will always get arguments about the outcome. The 2nd penalty decision last night for Wolves is a perfect example, you get 10 people together and you will have split opinions on whether it’s a foul or not. 

[5waller5]

3 hours ago, Robo61 said:

Again football is such a different game in this respect.  Fielders are standing pretty still watching every moment of every ball bowled,  captains are standing very close.  In football players are running around trying to find space rather than concentrating on what is happening with the ball or other players,  captains can be over 50yds from the action. 

 

I remain of the view that VAR will only work well for line decisions,  and even then spoils the game for those watching live until such these can be made automatic using technology only.   We should simply except that referees are human and expect that wrong decisions are part of the game.  We except it of Managers and particulalrly players so why not referees.  Seems to me VAR is just sanitising the game.

Oh I agree entirely that the game is better without it and that if it has to be used it’s for automated black and white decisions….

 

But that’s simply never going to happen, they’re not going to admit a mistake and back pedal like that.

 

I’m keen on the review system because it’s the best way, and proven in a different sport, to deal with FIFA’s appetite for more technology and the fans desire for it not to ruin the game

[RonnieTodger]

We are just going to go in circles, changing rules to suit VAR and running football into the ground.

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

Not a fan of a challenge system. It shifts the onus onto Managers rather than the officials. Still results in things not being given. Creates weird situations where 'that would have gotten overturned, but they had run out of challenges' and also the way the game plays out live doesn't lend itself to challenges being made. 

 

Like look at the Diaz goal situation - even if Spurs had a challenge to use in that situation, how would they have known to do so? Didn't they only find out it was dodgy after the game/at half time? 

...surely Spurs benefited in that situation, it would have been Liverpool putting in the challenge in that instance!!!

Whatever the incident was, VAR would be looking at it in less than a minute of it occurring. We take playback with any break in play at the moment.

If you think the wait is long, just wait till you watch the Belgian League, it takes forever to get confirmation, the players just stand around having a conversation with the ref and by the looks of things, it is not about football.

[tinpot_fox]

2 hours ago, worth_the_wait said:

 

Unfortunately, you've hit the nail on the head.   

 

VAR reduces football to a pantomime ... which is mildly amusing if you're sat at home not really bothered about the game, but destroys the game for the actual fans there.

 

Pantomime sequence:

 - Team A scores a goal.

 - Players and fans of team A celebrate.   Players and fans of team B disconsolate, and moaning about non-existent foul in the build-up

 - But wait ... VAR check in progress ... wait wait wait wait ...

 - Ref goes over to monitor ... replay replay replay replay ...

 - Goal disallowed

 - Players and fans of team A now dejected.   Players and fans of team B celebrate.     All back as we were ... no changed

 - 5 minutes later the game restarts. 

 

Take what has been the greatest sport in the world for 150 years and ruin it.

 

 

I felt a while ago that if football is better than American football it should have rolling substitutes and injury replacements whilst the game is in play, so 45 minutes of ball in play with “no” stoppages. VAR could add to that madness by letting the play carry on and VAR decisions realised during play, goals could disappear or reappear on the scoreboard, players who are deemed to have committed a red card offence having to leave the field when it is confirmed, accumulate all penalties to be taken at the end of the match so VAR can deliberate them without delaying the game.  Might need to rename the game from football though.

[brookfox]

All this will be loads easier when we all just logon to the metaverse to watch two AI controlled teams of avatars compete to see who has the best coding and algorithms. Instant VAR decisions from the comfort of your own home! Until the AI starts diving...

[BKLFox]

All the talk of var and knocking of officials every game is taking away any authority they had left.

 

It’s neigh on impossible to get every single decision right as an on field referee but due to all the hullabaloo after every game even the minor of details is being blown up into something to knock the officials on, which in turn is allowing players / managers (fans) to get out of jail and disrespect officials. 
Take last night the officials didn’t cheat to earn that penalty but all the talk is about them not the Fulham player who has.

 

All this VAR is killing the game due to the scrutiny is ironic because it’s (VAR) being forced to do it by players, managers, media. After every game pundits, managers etc will go over every inch of a game looking for something that went against them no matter how small, it’s blown into something and then that becomes a box on VARs crib sheet, if that (what ever) is being pushed into the limelight then they will say ok we thought that was soft but if you think it’s a big issue we’ll apply it across every game and bang you have another stoppage & repeat for the next issue.

 

VARs here, used around the world and isn’t going anywhere, all the bitching about it is just turning officials away from doing the job, when they and their families start getting death threats why the fec would you put yourself in the line of fire, a fire which is being whipped up by players, managers, media (& fans).

 

There will come a day when you can’t play sports because you don’t have officials to run the game.

[Les-TA-Jon]

31 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...surely Spurs benefited in that situation, it would have been Liverpool putting in the challenge in that instance!!!

Whatever the incident was, VAR would be looking at it in less than a minute of it occurring. We take playback with any break in play at the moment.

If you think the wait is long, just wait till you watch the Belgian League, it takes forever to get confirmation, the players just stand around having a conversation with the ref and by the looks of things, it is not about football.

Sorry brainfart; of course I meant Liverpool, not Spurs

[Super_horns]

1 hour ago, RonnieTodger said:

We are just going to go in circles, changing rules to suit VAR and running football into the ground.

For factual stuff might work but again free kicks and yellow cards are subjective so will basically be down to the call of the ref at the time and another one might think differently.

A bit like this idea for sin bins.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/28/sin-bins-football-trial-ifab-referees-abuse

Again going to be down to subjectivity so cause debate once more .