Manchester City Found Guilty Of Almost All Charges

[Manwell Pablo]

1 hour ago, foxfanazer said:

Should be allowed to spend what you want so long as it's fronted by your owners and there's money set aside for the club if it goes tits up for the owner to protect the existence of the club

 

Rules are ridiculous mate and Football has done this to itself, it's turning into a complete farce especially with all these counter claims being made by clubs, just at Leicester we could be in a situation where we are in court with Leeds and Manchester City at the same time over the next two years. Manchester City could be in court with half the country. 

 

That said if the rules are there you can't break them as negligently as we did never mind as negligently as they have. 

[lcfc81]

If it holds it will set a precedent for sure. If it is out of line with the punishments given for other clubs the premier league will be challenged. If found guilty any club who missed out by one place for anything in the affected seasons will likely claim against them including champions league qualification, European qualification, relegation- that in itself might be 24 claims and some of those very large! 

It looks like if the appeal is not successful it is going to be a real mess!

[Muzzy_no7]

Said it so many times and so of course have others but I’m so so glad we won it all before Football really did go too far and become a joke.

 

Feel a bit sorry for the likes of Newcastle, Sunderland, Brentford, B’mouth and Brighton who have only just or are about to have success but it’s in this particularly dodgy era.

[lcfc81]

2 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Rules are ridiculous mate and Football has done this to itself, it's turning into a complete farce especially with all these counter claims being made by clubs, just at Leicester we could be in a situation where we are in court with Leeds and Manchester City at the same time over the next two years. Manchester City could be in court with half the country. 

 

That said if the rules are there you can't break them as negligently as we did never mind as negligently as they have. 

The rules have ruined football, it feels like a game decided by business people now and not about assembling the best teams. They need to lift these ridiculous rules that the biggest clubs work around, and they need to introduce a deposit fund against spending- you can spend what you want but you need to be able to demonstrate you can pay the contracts of all the players you buy fully- if this is not demonstrated you are docked points. A redistribution of these ludicrous fees paid. 

[lcfc81]

2 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

Said it so many times and so of course have others but I’m so so glad we won it all before Football really did go too far and become a joke.

 

Feel a bit sorry for the likes of Newcastle, Sunderland, Brentford, B’mouth and Brighton who have only just or are about to have success but it’s in this particularly dodgy era.

I feel this was the reaction to us winning it! It became a joke because we won it! I remember those ridiculous instructions to punishing any holding from corners after we won the league which lasted about 6 weeks until they realised we weren't going to do very well that season!

[foxile5]

1 minute ago, lcfc81 said:

The rules have ruined football, it feels like a game decided by business people now and not about assembling the best teams. They need to lift these ridiculous rules that the biggest clubs work around, and they need to introduce a deposit fund against spending- you can spend what you want but you need to be able to demonstrate you can pay the contracts of all the players you buy fully- if this is not demonstrated you are docked points. A redistribution of these ludicrous fees paid. 

It is about assembling the best teams. But it's financially constructed so those best teams are always the top six.

 

And it's constructed around those teams because of fans in Africa, Asia, and America.

 

The American games are coming next and it'll be done under the premise of raising psr potential for clubs. 

[Corky]

12 hours ago, Dan said:

Yep. This just cements the red cartel.

Let's not forget that Man City were quite popular champions in 2012 because a lot of supporters were bored of watching Man United dominate. There was a lot of criticism about the "Big Four" stronghold in the late noughties. In this era of supposed Big Six dominance we have had more variety in terms of champions and European qualifiers.

 

Also, these clubs now outraged by Man City's behaviour have been quite happy to accept bids from the club ranging from £50-125 million over the years. Happy to buy their youth team players for sizeable fees.

[lfu]

9 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

As long as it's done correctly the EFL will have no choice but to take them, an automatic relegation wont be done mid season it's impossible to implement. The literal only thing the PL could do if they are kicking them out mid season is remove them from the league ala a team that went bust then inform the EFL they are one of the relegated teams and they need placing in X division. 

 

I don't see that happening, personally think the worst they will get is a doom sentance of a points deduction. 

from what I understand (I'm by no means a Nick de Marco KC reincarnate), the independent commission could very well rule that in their view, expulsion from the league is the most appropriate penalty, in which case it goes back to the PL as a recommendation for the shareholders (the 20 clubs) to vote on. If 15 clubs vote in favour, Man City would be expelled from the league. If that happens, the EFL would only be required to accept Man City into a specific league if the FA's Leagues Commission intervenes – otherwise the EFL could be free to accept them into the Championship, or decide to put them in League 2, or refuse admission to them entirely and pass the buck to the National League.

[Lutterworth Fox]

Can't wait for National League North fixture Harborough Town v Man City.

Wonder if it will be all ticket? Hoping l get one but with a capacity of under 2,000 that's very unlikely.

[OntarioFox]

14 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

As long as it's done correctly the EFL will have no choice but to take them, an automatic relegation wont be done mid season it's impossible to implement. The literal only thing the PL could do if they are kicking them out mid season is remove them from the league ala a team that went bust then inform the EFL they are one of the relegated teams and they need placing in X division. 

 

I don't see that happening, personally think the worst they will get is a doom sentance of a points deduction. 

I think what I'm saying is that this is such an unprecedented circumstance that Man City's admission would surely have to be approved at the AGM, at which point there are a lot of teams who might outright refuse to support their inclusion. Like I said, a team has never been expelled from the Premier League since its inception, so there's zero precedent that says they would then get to dictate to the EFL that they would have to take them at all, let alone which league they'd be placed in. We've already shown how messy the split governance is where precedent doesn't exist.

 

It probably wouldn't just be folks like us opposing it either - say for example they drop to League Two, there's no way in a million years that even without their superstars they don't steamroller that division and cost one of the "better" teams at that level a promotion spot, so teams that challenge for promotion each season at whatever level they find themselves would be similarly icy about suddenly having a team with unlimited resources airdropped into the equation. Is an away day on TV at the Etihad really worth more to a Walsall or a Cheltenham than promotion to a higher division?

You're right though, the easy and less messy way around that is for them to just deduct a shit-ton of points off them and relegate them after one season so there are no arguments about the validity of their place in the EFL.

[Vacamion]

 

Next Panini album is going to have football lawyers and association administrators in it.  

[Lutterworth Fox]

Relegation by one division is nowhere near enough, they'll come straight back up to Premier League. Look what happened to Glasgow Rangers about 14 years ago for financial irregularities etc far far less than these cheating scumbags yet they were demoted to rock bottom of Scottish League 2.

[David Hankey]

Could the 'Cheetahs' be playing Anstey Nomads or Harborough Town next season?

[urban.spaceman]

Something I haven't seen discussed anywhere and to me seems a very important question....

 

When does the investigation into Man City's conduct after the 2009-2018 period begin? Cos there's no way they didn't stop cheating after 2018. 

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, trooky said:

Man City were originally banned by UEFA from their competitions when we finished 5th, but it was eventually over turned. 

 

Our owners ****ed up massively but if I was Top I would  be suing the ass out of them, UEFA and the PL. 

you can’t go after uefa - the verdict has been done and their own rules dictated the appeal process 

 

UEFA are the body who allow admission into their competitions. We finished 5th. Manchester City were eligible at the deadline point of qualification. 
 

The end. That would be legal standing 

[nnfox]

13 minutes ago, Lutterworth Fox said:

Relegation by one division is nowhere near enough, they'll come straight back up to Premier League. Look what happened to Glasgow Rangers about 14 years ago for financial irregularities etc far far less than these cheating scumbags yet they were demoted to rock bottom of Scottish League 2.

Rangers basically went bust.  The club ceased to exist until a consortium bought up the assets and relaunched it.  They applied for Premiership status and it was denied so they applied for SFL status, were accepted but had to start at the bottom.

 

Realistically, I can only see two ways in which Man City aren't in the Premier League next season.  One is to give them perhaps a 114 point deduction this year which would relegate them to the Championship.  I don't think this is acceptable for most because Man City could survive one season in the Championship, probably hold onto a good few players and get instantly promoted with a record points haul and then what? That's it?  As you were?

 

The expulsion from the Premier League is far more interesting.  That could stipulate maybe a 5 year ban from the Premier League rather than a simple relegation where the EFL would be obliged to accept them.  With expulsion, surely that's them out and effectively disqualified.  The normal promotion/relegation rules still apply and are filled as normal and Man City are left searching for a home and the EFL wouldn't be obliged to offer them a spot.

 

This could get really messy.  I love it!

[Manwell Pablo]

25 minutes ago, OntarioFox said:

I think what I'm saying is that this is such an unprecedented circumstance that Man City's admission would surely have to be approved at the AGM, at which point there are a lot of teams who might outright refuse to support their inclusion. Like I said, a team has never been expelled from the Premier League since its inception, so there's zero precedent that says they would then get to dictate to the EFL that they would have to take them at all, let alone which league they'd be placed in. We've already shown how messy the split governance is where precedent doesn't exist.

 

It probably wouldn't just be folks like us opposing it either - say for example they drop to League Two, there's no way in a million years that even without their superstars they don't steamroller that division and cost one of the "better" teams at that level a promotion spot, so teams that challenge for promotion each season at whatever level they find themselves would be similarly icy about suddenly having a team with unlimited resources airdropped into the equation. Is an away day on TV at the Etihad really worth more to a Walsall or a Cheltenham than promotion to a higher division?

You're right though, the easy and less messy way around that is for them to just deduct a shit-ton of points off them and relegate them after one season so there are no arguments about the validity of their place in the EFL.

I can’t see them dropping to League Two tbh I think this is getting banned about a lot because of Juventus and Rangers. 
 

Again it’s a league structure the PL would have to effectively “relegate” Manchester City meaning the EFL would have to take them the FA would get involved in any attempt to deny them a place in the EFL which wouldn’t happen, they wouldn’t be coming in as a “new” club  
 

What I envisage happening given a precedent has been set as a lot of those offences (50-70 without looking at them in too much detail) are similar to things ourselves and Everton have been done with which all carry roughly a 2 point penalty each, meaning they will get a points deduction which will end their season.

 

Question is what do they do after a circa 110 point deduction has been applied anymore is redundant and there are 30-40 cases still outstanding for judgement, I am guessing they are not all offences that carry points deductions but surely some of them will be and anything over 100- 110 points in the same season is inarguably a redundant punishment. 
 

it wouldn’t surprise me if they get them carried over to the championship which would cripple a promotion campaign and basically send them back to the pre Saudi era and with the current FFP laws keep them there. 

[Great Boos Up]

The whole thing is a mess.

Relegate them and that gets messy. The PL already have huge TV contracts for the seasons games.

Fine? who sets that amount. There is no right answer.

It will have to be point deductions. Lets say half the 114.

So 57 points deducted and let the appeals be against the points otherwise it will drag on and on.

[Manwell Pablo]

52 minutes ago, lfu said:

from what I understand (I'm by no means a Nick de Marco KC reincarnate), the independent commission could very well rule that in their view, expulsion from the league is the most appropriate penalty, in which case it goes back to the PL as a recommendation for the shareholders (the 20 clubs) to vote on. If 15 clubs vote in favour, Man City would be expelled from the league. If that happens, the EFL would only be required to accept Man City into a specific league if the FA's Leagues Commission intervenes – otherwise the EFL could be free to accept them into the Championship, or decide to put them in League 2, or refuse admission to them entirely and pass the buck to the National League.

And the FA’s league commission would 100% intervene.  To keep my answer short. 
 

I wouldn’t worry about not being Nick De Marco pretty sure this particular case confuses even him. 
 

But, A club like Manchester City are not going to be told there’s no place for them in the EFL ffs 😂

Edited Saturday at 11:17 by Manwell Pablo

[David Hankey]

No wonder Pep left, he could see the writing on the wall.

[Manwell Pablo]

It’s a very hard thing to speculate about. If you just take like 20-30 of the cases which are specifically to do with failing to submit accounts, we weren’t actually docked points for that I don’t think, we were docked points for the overspend. 
 

So you could argue 20-30 of those cases aren’t punishable by points deduction. 
 

You could equally argue there is a big difference between doing something once and doing it 25 times. 

[Foxdiamond]

26 minutes ago, nnfox said:

Rangers basically went bust.  The club ceased to exist until a consortium bought up the assets and relaunched it.  They applied for Premiership status and it was denied so they applied for SFL status, were accepted but had to start at the bottom.

 

Realistically, I can only see two ways in which Man City aren't in the Premier League next season.  One is to give them perhaps a 114 point deduction this year which would relegate them to the Championship.  I don't think this is acceptable for most because Man City could survive one season in the Championship, probably hold onto a good few players and get instantly promoted with a record points haul and then what? That's it?  As you were?

 

The expulsion from the Premier League is far more interesting.  That could stipulate maybe a 5 year ban from the Premier League rather than a simple relegation where the EFL would be obliged to accept them.  With expulsion, surely that's them out and effectively disqualified.  The normal promotion/relegation rules still apply and are filled as normal and Man City are left searching for a home and the EFL wouldn't be obliged to offer them a spot.

 

This could get really messy.  I love it!

How about 20 points deduction for 5 consecutive seasons. Just a random thought 

[Zear0]

7 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

It’s a very hard thing to speculate about. If you just take like 20-30 of the cases which are specifically to do with failing to submit accounts, we weren’t actually docked points for that I don’t think, we were docked points for the overspend. 
 

So you could argue 20-30 of those cases aren’t punishable by points deduction. 
 

You could equally argue there is a big difference between doing something once and doing it 25 times. 

The big difference though is the deceit by overpaying through shady third parties so it never appeared on the books.

[Manwell Pablo]

4 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

The big difference though is the deceit by overpaying through shady third parties so it never appeared on the books.

Again something Chelsea have done and not received a points deduction. 
 

if you actually look at most of their charges they are things normally dealt with by a fine. But the sheer amount of them makes it unprecedented and hard to predict a punishment. 
 

The 7 over spending, charges and UEFA charges, should land them with -42 points and a lengthy ban from

Europe, as a minimum baseline. Whatever happens on top of that is anyone’s guess. 

Edited Saturday at 11:36 by Manwell Pablo

[trooky]

3 hours ago, ealingfox said:

Unless I've misunderstood, the years they have been found to have cheated in only runs to 2018, with charges from then to 2023 only relating to them not cooperating with the investigation. 

 

So not sure how you claim damages on the basis that it directly caused Rodgers bottling top 4 in 2020 and 2021.

2018 was when the football leaks emails where released. UEFA had financial fair play rules before the PL that capped the owner covering losses of only 45 million euros once they entered UEFA football competitions. 

 

City falsified their accounts claiming that the money was from sponsorship when the majority was from the owners, they also falsified the saleries of Mancini and players in the accounts, given them payments off the books. 

 

2018 was when the leaked body of evidence ended, who knows when they stopped cooking the books?

 

They basically ignored all the PL rules designed to stop sports washing, the PL had no idea it was happening for 9 years untill it was leaked by a hacker in the press. 

 

How long would this have continued if the internal emails weren't hacked and leaked? 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 12:53 by trooky