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[Foxxed]

I doubt Corbyn will go for a second referendum unless pushed by his party.

 

He thinks Brexit is his ticket to a socialist utopia. In the same way Reece-Mogg thinks Brexit is his ticket to a free trade utopia. Both wrong imo.

[gw_leics772]

For the record. I categorically do think it is ok for them to shoot pictures of jeremy corbyn, and dont really care whether people disagree.

 

Just thought it might be helpful for someone to be definite to move away from arguing what people did/didnt say/imply they believe/dont believe.

(Ninja mother****er emoji)

Edited 3 April 2019 by gw_leics772
Add Ninja mother****er emoji

[Buce]

 

Facebook Brexit ads secretly run by staff of Lynton Crosby firm

Exclusive: ‘grassroots’ groups that spent up to £1m on targeted Facebook ads share administrator who works for lobbying firm

 

 

A series of hugely influential Facebook advertising campaigns that appear to be separate grassroots movements for a no-deal Brexit are secretly overseen by employees of Sir Lynton Crosby’s lobbying company and a former adviser to Boris Johnson, documents seen by the Guardian reveal.

The mysterious groups, which have names such as Mainstream Network and Britain’s Future, appear to be run independently by members of the public and give no hint that they are connected. But in reality they share an administrator who works for Crosby’s CTF Partners and have spent as much as £1m promoting sophisticated targeted adverts aimed at heaping pressure on individual MPs to vote for a hard Brexit.

Repeated questions have been raised about who is backing at least a dozen high-spending groups that have flooded MPs’ inboxes with calls to reject Theresa May’s deal. Until now they were thought to be independent entities.

But according to the documents, almost all the major pro-Brexit Facebook “grassroots” advertising campaigns in the UK share the same page admins or advertisers. These individuals include employees of CTF Partners and the political director of Boris Johnson’s campaigns to be mayor of London, who has worked closely with Crosby in the past.

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK’s major political parties and the UK government combined. They have paid for thousands of different targeted Facebook ads encouraging members of the public to write to their local MPs and call for the toughest possible exit from the EU, creating the impression of organic public opposition to Theresa May’s deal.

 

Crosby’s secretive lobbying company, CTF Partners, has come under increasing scrutiny in recent months. Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be “mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers”, whether to delegitimise the Qatari government or convince people that burning coal is good.

 

The Australian political strategist helped run the last four Conservative general election campaigns, helping to secure an unexpected majority government for the party in 2015.

He has recently been repeatedly linked to a potential Conservative leadership campaign by Johnson, having been lined up to run the former foreign secretary’s abortive 2016 bid for the same position. CTF Partners gave Johnson an interest-free loan of £23,000 – subsequently repaid – in January, while the company already employs arch-Brexiter former Tory MP Stewart Jackson in an advisory role and paid for the former Brexit secretary David Davis to go on trips.

Mainstream Network attracted attention last year when it was exposed for spending at least £250,000 to reach more than 10 million voters with adverts urging voters to email their local MP and urging them to “chuck Chequers”, alongside articles criticising George Soros’s involvement in the remain campaign. After it attracted attention it was abruptly shut down.

 

Although Facebook has substantially increased the level of transparency around political advertising in recent months, all that is required to run such a campaign is a publicly named individual who is registered to a UK postal address or contact details for a public organisation. There is no true disclosure around a campaign’s financial backers and no UK law requiring financial transparency outside an election period.

 

After the closure of the Mainstream Network site, similar adverts began appearing on a Facebook page named Britain’s Future, whose public frontman is a former Two Pints Of Lager and a Packet of Crisps scriptwriter named Tim Dawson who later became a Conservative council candidate.

The group hit the headlines last month when it was revealed it was the biggest single UK political advertiser on Facebook, spending £422,000 on adverts campaigning for a hard Brexit despite never declaring its financial backers.

According to documents seen by the Guardian, individuals with the ability to place adverts on both the Mainstream Network and Britain’s Future page include Reuben Solomon, whom multiple sources identified as an employee of Crosby’s CTF Partners.

He did not respond to a request for comment but a relative, who previously lived with him at an address in north London, confirmed to the Guardian that Solomon worked for Crosby.

 

According to the documents, other individuals with oversight of the Mainstream Network Facebook page include Charles Carroll and Alex Crowley.

Carroll, who deleted his LinkedIn profile after the Guardian began to seek comment for this article, also works for Crosby’s CTF Partners, according to a cached version of the page.

Crowley was employed by Boris Johnson as his political adviser during his period as mayor of London, later writing a book about his experience working closely with Crosby on campaigns. He later went on to run a political campaigning company and became political director on Zac Goldsmith’s ill-fated mayoral bid.

The Brexit supporter said his involvement in Mainstream Network was because “some who disliked the result have been actively trying to overturn it”. He did not comment on his links to Crosby but said: “I wanted to see the result actually delivered and give a voice to that majority so the democratic result is honoured.”

Dawson, the public face of Britain’s Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: “This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for.”

Solomon, the CTF employee, is also connected to a page called We are the 52%, which has spent more than £50,000 on pro-Brexit Facebook adverts and is fronted by a Conservative activist and former Vote Leave staffer Theodora Dickinson.

Dickinson declined to comment on any links between her group and Crosby’s company but said remain campaigners “are using similar tactics and spending more” without fully declaring their financial backers, highlighting the £370,000 expenditure on Facebook adverts by the People’s Vote campaign and the £300,000 spent by Best for Britain.

 

 

Solomon is also listed as an administrator on at least a dozen other pro-Brexit pages, which typically mix campaigning content with other unrelated interests and appear to have also spent money running an unknown number of pro-Brexit adverts. Pages used for the messaging include Small Business for Great Britain, Northern Industry, and Protecting British Heritage.

The House of Commons digital, culture, media and sport select committee, which has led the way on investigating online disinformation, has repeatedly called for Facebook to reveal the identities of those who were funding Mainstream Network, suggesting they crossed an ethical line.

“I believe there is a strong public interest in understanding who is behind the Mainstream Network, and that this information should be published,” the committee’s chairman, Damian Collins, said last month after Facebook refused to identify the individuals behind the page.

“People should have a right to know who is targeting them with political advertisements and why. That is why the committee had called for a change in the law to outlaw these kind of dark adverts from secret campaigns,” he said.

Although the documents point towards the individuals who are running the campaigns, it remains unclear who is ultimately picking up the substantial bill for this attempt to persuade MPs there is a grassroots uprising for a hard Brexit.

CTF Partners, Carroll, and Solomon did not respond to requests for comment.

[Mike Oxlong]

41 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Facebook Brexit ads secretly run by staff of Lynton Crosby firm

Exclusive: ‘grassroots’ groups that spent up to £1m on targeted Facebook ads share administrator who works for lobbying firm

 

 

A series of hugely influential Facebook advertising campaigns that appear to be separate grassroots movements for a no-deal Brexit are secretly overseen by employees of Sir Lynton Crosby’s lobbying company and a former adviser to Boris Johnson, documents seen by the Guardian reveal.

The mysterious groups, which have names such as Mainstream Network and Britain’s Future, appear to be run independently by members of the public and give no hint that they are connected. But in reality they share an administrator who works for Crosby’s CTF Partners and have spent as much as £1m promoting sophisticated targeted adverts aimed at heaping pressure on individual MPs to vote for a hard Brexit.

Repeated questions have been raised about who is backing at least a dozen high-spending groups that have flooded MPs’ inboxes with calls to reject Theresa May’s deal. Until now they were thought to be independent entities.

But according to the documents, almost all the major pro-Brexit Facebook “grassroots” advertising campaigns in the UK share the same page admins or advertisers. These individuals include employees of CTF Partners and the political director of Boris Johnson’s campaigns to be mayor of London, who has worked closely with Crosby in the past.

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK’s major political parties and the UK government combined. They have paid for thousands of different targeted Facebook ads encouraging members of the public to write to their local MPs and call for the toughest possible exit from the EU, creating the impression of organic public opposition to Theresa May’s deal.

 

Crosby’s secretive lobbying company, CTF Partners, has come under increasing scrutiny in recent months. Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be “mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers”, whether to delegitimise the Qatari government or convince people that burning coal is good.

 

The Australian political strategist helped run the last four Conservative general election campaigns, helping to secure an unexpected majority government for the party in 2015.

He has recently been repeatedly linked to a potential Conservative leadership campaign by Johnson, having been lined up to run the former foreign secretary’s abortive 2016 bid for the same position. CTF Partners gave Johnson an interest-free loan of £23,000 – subsequently repaid – in January, while the company already employs arch-Brexiter former Tory MP Stewart Jackson in an advisory role and paid for the former Brexit secretary David Davis to go on trips.

Mainstream Network attracted attention last year when it was exposed for spending at least £250,000 to reach more than 10 million voters with adverts urging voters to email their local MP and urging them to “chuck Chequers”, alongside articles criticising George Soros’s involvement in the remain campaign. After it attracted attention it was abruptly shut down.

 

Although Facebook has substantially increased the level of transparency around political advertising in recent months, all that is required to run such a campaign is a publicly named individual who is registered to a UK postal address or contact details for a public organisation. There is no true disclosure around a campaign’s financial backers and no UK law requiring financial transparency outside an election period.

 

After the closure of the Mainstream Network site, similar adverts began appearing on a Facebook page named Britain’s Future, whose public frontman is a former Two Pints Of Lager and a Packet of Crisps scriptwriter named Tim Dawson who later became a Conservative council candidate.

The group hit the headlines last month when it was revealed it was the biggest single UK political advertiser on Facebook, spending £422,000 on adverts campaigning for a hard Brexit despite never declaring its financial backers.

According to documents seen by the Guardian, individuals with the ability to place adverts on both the Mainstream Network and Britain’s Future page include Reuben Solomon, whom multiple sources identified as an employee of Crosby’s CTF Partners.

He did not respond to a request for comment but a relative, who previously lived with him at an address in north London, confirmed to the Guardian that Solomon worked for Crosby.

 

According to the documents, other individuals with oversight of the Mainstream Network Facebook page include Charles Carroll and Alex Crowley.

Carroll, who deleted his LinkedIn profile after the Guardian began to seek comment for this article, also works for Crosby’s CTF Partners, according to a cached version of the page.

Crowley was employed by Boris Johnson as his political adviser during his period as mayor of London, later writing a book about his experience working closely with Crosby on campaigns. He later went on to run a political campaigning company and became political director on Zac Goldsmith’s ill-fated mayoral bid.

The Brexit supporter said his involvement in Mainstream Network was because “some who disliked the result have been actively trying to overturn it”. He did not comment on his links to Crosby but said: “I wanted to see the result actually delivered and give a voice to that majority so the democratic result is honoured.”

Dawson, the public face of Britain’s Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: “This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for.”

Solomon, the CTF employee, is also connected to a page called We are the 52%, which has spent more than £50,000 on pro-Brexit Facebook adverts and is fronted by a Conservative activist and former Vote Leave staffer Theodora Dickinson.

Dickinson declined to comment on any links between her group and Crosby’s company but said remain campaigners “are using similar tactics and spending more” without fully declaring their financial backers, highlighting the £370,000 expenditure on Facebook adverts by the People’s Vote campaign and the £300,000 spent by Best for Britain.

 

 

Solomon is also listed as an administrator on at least a dozen other pro-Brexit pages, which typically mix campaigning content with other unrelated interests and appear to have also spent money running an unknown number of pro-Brexit adverts. Pages used for the messaging include Small Business for Great Britain, Northern Industry, and Protecting British Heritage.

The House of Commons digital, culture, media and sport select committee, which has led the way on investigating online disinformation, has repeatedly called for Facebook to reveal the identities of those who were funding Mainstream Network, suggesting they crossed an ethical line.

“I believe there is a strong public interest in understanding who is behind the Mainstream Network, and that this information should be published,” the committee’s chairman, Damian Collins, said last month after Facebook refused to identify the individuals behind the page.

“People should have a right to know who is targeting them with political advertisements and why. That is why the committee had called for a change in the law to outlaw these kind of dark adverts from secret campaigns,” he said.

Although the documents point towards the individuals who are running the campaigns, it remains unclear who is ultimately picking up the substantial bill for this attempt to persuade MPs there is a grassroots uprising for a hard Brexit.

CTF Partners, Carroll, and Solomon did not respond to requests for comment.

Isn’t Keith more interested in the delivery of washing machines ? 

[fuchsntf]

3 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Somebody should do a TV series on Brexit - it has it all.

It's all set up for Baldricks....Cunning plan!!! Or even better..General Melchets

 

 

 

May's debate then negotiations  must of been something like this..!!!

Edited 3 April 2019 by fuchsntf

[Finnegan]

God, its a barren featureless desert out there. 

[Buce]

Bad diets killing more people globally than tobacco, study finds

Eating and drinking better could prevent one in five early deaths, researchers say

 

Unhealthy diets are responsible for 11m preventable deaths globally per year, more even than smoking tobacco, according to a major study.

But the biggest problem is not the junk we eat but the nutritious food we don’t eat, say researchers, calling for a global shift in policy to promote vegetables, fruit, nuts and legumes.

While sugar and trans-fats are harmful, more deaths are caused by the absence of healthy foods in our diet, the study found.

The research is part of the Global Burden of Disease study by the Institute of Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) in Seattle, published in the Lancet medical journal.

Heart attacks and strokes are the main diet-related causes of death, followed by cancers and type 2 diabetes, say researchers.

The study found that eating and drinking better could prevent one in five deaths around the world. Although diets vary from one country to another, eating too few fruits and vegetables and too much sodium (salt) accounted for half of all deaths and two-thirds of the years of disability attributable to diet.

“Our findings show that suboptimal diet is responsible for more deaths than any other risks globally, including tobacco smoking, highlighting the urgent need for improving human diet across nations,” they write.

Rather than trying to persuade people to cut down on sugar, salt and fat, which has been “the main focus of of diet policy debate in the past two decades”, it would be better to promote healthy options, they say.

“Generally in real life people do substitution. When they increase the consumption of something, they decrease the consumption of other things,” said Dr Ashkan Afshin of the IHME, the lead author.

Countries that have a mainly Mediterranean diet eat more fruit, vegetables, nuts and legumes, said Afshin, naming Lebanon, Israel and Iran among the better performers. “But no country has an optimal level of consumption of all the health foods. Even in countries that have a Mediterranean diet, the current intake of many other dietary factors is not optimal.”

The paper is the most comprehensive analysis on the health effects of diet ever conducted, says the IHME.

It looked at 15 different nutrients – some good for health and some not so good. The main risk factors were eating too much salt and too few whole grains, fruit, nuts and seeds, vegetables and omega-3 fatty acids from seafood. Other risk factors considered were consuming high levels of red and processed meat and sugary drinks, low milk consumption and low fibre.

Poor diets were responsible for 10.9m deaths, or 22% of all deaths among adults in 2017. Cardiovascular disease was the leading cause, followed by cancers and diabetes. Nearly half – 45% – were in people younger than 70.

Tobacco was associated with 8m deaths, and high blood pressure was linked to 10.4m deaths.

Israel had the lowest rate of diet-related deaths, at 89 per 100,000 deaths, followed by France, Spain and Japan. The UK ranked 23rd, with 127 diet-related deaths per 100,000 and the US was 43rd with 171. Uzbekistan was last, with 892.

Prof Walter Willett from Harvard University, a co-author of the study, said that the findings were consistent with a recently published analysis of the benefits for cardiovascular health of replacing red meat with plant sources of protein.

“Adoption of diets emphasising soy foods, beans and other healthy plant sources of protein will have important benefits for both human and planetary health,” he said.

Tom Sanders, a professor emeritus of nutrition and dietetics at King’s College London, said the analysis put too much emphasis on individual components rather than the overall diet. “Obesity is a major driver for risk of type 2 diabetes as well as cancer and the health evidence for this relationship is strong. Obesity is caused by eating more food energy than required rather than specific dietary components such as sugar. The trend for populations to become increasingly sedentary is a major reason why there is an imbalance between energy intake and expenditure but increased availability of foods with a high energy density (more calories/gram) makes it too easy to overeat.”

Dr Christopher Murray, a director of the IHME and one of the authors, said: “This study affirms what many have thought for several years – that poor diet is responsible for more deaths than any other risk factor in the world.

“While sodium, sugar, and fat have been the focus of policy debates over the past two decades, our assessment suggests the leading dietary risk factors are high intake of sodium, or low intake of healthy foods, such as whole grains, fruit, nuts and seeds, and vegetables. The paper also highlights the need for comprehensive interventions to promote the production, distribution, and consumption of healthy foods across all nations.”

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

Bad diets killing more people globally than tobacco, study finds

Eating and drinking better could prevent one in five early deaths, researchers say

 

Unhealthy diets are responsible for 11m preventable deaths globally per year, more even than smoking tobacco, according to a major study.

But the biggest problem is not the junk we eat but the nutritious food we don’t eat, say researchers, calling for a global shift in policy to promote vegetables, fruit, nuts and legumes.

While sugar and trans-fats are harmful, more deaths are caused by the absence of healthy foods in our diet, the study found.

The research is part of the Global Burden of Disease study by the Institute of Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) in Seattle, published in the Lancet medical journal.

Heart attacks and strokes are the main diet-related causes of death, followed by cancers and type 2 diabetes, say researchers.

The study found that eating and drinking better could prevent one in five deaths around the world. Although diets vary from one country to another, eating too few fruits and vegetables and too much sodium (salt) accounted for half of all deaths and two-thirds of the years of disability attributable to diet.

“Our findings show that suboptimal diet is responsible for more deaths than any other risks globally, including tobacco smoking, highlighting the urgent need for improving human diet across nations,” they write.

Rather than trying to persuade people to cut down on sugar, salt and fat, which has been “the main focus of of diet policy debate in the past two decades”, it would be better to promote healthy options, they say.

“Generally in real life people do substitution. When they increase the consumption of something, they decrease the consumption of other things,” said Dr Ashkan Afshin of the IHME, the lead author.

Countries that have a mainly Mediterranean diet eat more fruit, vegetables, nuts and legumes, said Afshin, naming Lebanon, Israel and Iran among the better performers. “But no country has an optimal level of consumption of all the health foods. Even in countries that have a Mediterranean diet, the current intake of many other dietary factors is not optimal.”

The paper is the most comprehensive analysis on the health effects of diet ever conducted, says the IHME.

It looked at 15 different nutrients – some good for health and some not so good. The main risk factors were eating too much salt and too few whole grains, fruit, nuts and seeds, vegetables and omega-3 fatty acids from seafood. Other risk factors considered were consuming high levels of red and processed meat and sugary drinks, low milk consumption and low fibre.

Poor diets were responsible for 10.9m deaths, or 22% of all deaths among adults in 2017. Cardiovascular disease was the leading cause, followed by cancers and diabetes. Nearly half – 45% – were in people younger than 70.

Tobacco was associated with 8m deaths, and high blood pressure was linked to 10.4m deaths.

Israel had the lowest rate of diet-related deaths, at 89 per 100,000 deaths, followed by France, Spain and Japan. The UK ranked 23rd, with 127 diet-related deaths per 100,000 and the US was 43rd with 171. Uzbekistan was last, with 892.

Prof Walter Willett from Harvard University, a co-author of the study, said that the findings were consistent with a recently published analysis of the benefits for cardiovascular health of replacing red meat with plant sources of protein.

“Adoption of diets emphasising soy foods, beans and other healthy plant sources of protein will have important benefits for both human and planetary health,” he said.

Tom Sanders, a professor emeritus of nutrition and dietetics at King’s College London, said the analysis put too much emphasis on individual components rather than the overall diet. “Obesity is a major driver for risk of type 2 diabetes as well as cancer and the health evidence for this relationship is strong. Obesity is caused by eating more food energy than required rather than specific dietary components such as sugar. The trend for populations to become increasingly sedentary is a major reason why there is an imbalance between energy intake and expenditure but increased availability of foods with a high energy density (more calories/gram) makes it too easy to overeat.”

Dr Christopher Murray, a director of the IHME and one of the authors, said: “This study affirms what many have thought for several years – that poor diet is responsible for more deaths than any other risk factor in the world.

“While sodium, sugar, and fat have been the focus of policy debates over the past two decades, our assessment suggests the leading dietary risk factors are high intake of sodium, or low intake of healthy foods, such as whole grains, fruit, nuts and seeds, and vegetables. The paper also highlights the need for comprehensive interventions to promote the production, distribution, and consumption of healthy foods across all nations.”

Right, that’s it, I’m taking up smoking. 

[Guest]

So who is going to give me the cutting edge analysis of that vote about delaying Brexit last night. I need to comprehension fix.

[MC Prussian]

Wow, Brunei - way to go, the Middle Ages are back:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47769964

 

Starting yesterday, homosexuals can be stoned to death if found guilty, thieves will have limbs cut off. Just... 

 

[Guest MattP]

30 minutes ago, FIF said:

So who is going to give me the cutting edge analysis of that vote about delaying Brexit last night. I need to comprehension fix.

One of the most important bills in years was voted through the house on the third reading in the space of a day after a debate of about two hours. The bill passed by one vote and a person who should still be in prison was (allegedly) sort out by the whips. These things usually take weeks.

 

Basically we don't actually have a serious parliament anymore, or many serious politicians in it and the sooner it's bulldozed down and replaced with new people and parties the better it is for all of us. 

[Finnegan]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

One of the most important bills in years was voted through the house on the third reading in the space of a day after a debate of about two hours. The bill passed by one vote and a person who should still be in prison was (allegedly) sort out by the whips. These things usually take weeks.

 

Basically we don't actually have a serious parliament anymore, or many serious politicians in it and the sooner it's bulldozed down and replaced with new people and parties the better it is for all of us. 

 

Exactly why there should be a referendum. 

 

How this lot think its on them to decide is beyond me. 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

Whilst my level of sympathy for politicians is pretty low, it must be a little bit tricky for them.

 

17.4m said leave without a definition of what leave was (spare me any leave means leave comments.  It’s lazy) and a proportion of that vote is saying if you dont leave in a way we want, we’re gonna smash up the country.  Then you have 16.4m who want to remain, a million of which (spare me arguments on the actual number) took to the streets to re-enforce that view and now another 6m (spare me the ‘I signed it a million times’ bullshit) petitioning to cancel the whole thing.  There’s big business and politicians on all sides of the argument.

 

There are now also proven illegalities that some want explored and others want ignored.  

 

On top of all this, there’s a rise of the far-right and the far-left, both of which are to be frank, ****ing idiotic.

 

You have a small number of career Eurosceptics who despite wanting to leave the EU their entire lives, don’t seem to have a grip on how it works, why it works, the legalities, procedures and timescales needed to organise leaving.  It’s truly bizarre.  They had a ****ing lesson on what the Customs Union is and how it works despite having voted on it already.  What the actual ****??

 

How exactly did the PM think this would turn out when she triggered Article 50 without even a smidgen of an idea of what the plan was??

 

Personally, I’ve reached a point of anger where if anyone does take to the streets to physically cause chaos, whichever side of the argument they’re on, I’ll be there to fight them.  It feels like that’s all that’s left.

 

I’ve lost my job over this, my savings have now vanished, I have people in the pub telling me I need to ‘go home’ as i’m not welcome in the country anymore (born and ****ing bred here but my mother is asian).  Truly I have nothing left other than to take a hammer to someone and at the minute, that feels like an inevitability.

[Guest MattP]

53 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Exactly why there should be a referendum. 

 

How this lot think its on them to decide is beyond me. 

They have had four votes on a second referendum and it's been defeated every time by a fairly comfortable margin.

[Strokes]

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

They have had four votes on a second referendum and it's been defeated every time by a fairly comfortable margin.

So has everything else! 

Nothing is passing in parliament, so what else can be done?

[The Guvnor]

25 minutes ago, Strokes said:

So has everything else! 

Nothing is passing in parliament, so what else can be done?

Interesting a Labour MP this morning trying to push a second referendum  or PV whatever badge you want to put on it and said any deal agreed in Parliament would be pointless as it satisfies neither remain or leavers and is worse than remaining in the EU, then was suggesting the cobbled plan should be put against remain in a peoples vote. I think this option would be the most inflammatory way to settle Brexit as there is no option to leave ie WTO terms, incidentally although I voted leave I am not sure now how I would vote but the option to leave has to be an option otherwise it's morally wrong.

Edited 4 April 2019 by The Guvnor

[Alf Bentley]

On 02/04/2019 at 09:32, MattP said:

As a Remain voter, what benefits do you pitch to leave voters about why CM 2.0 works for them?

 

Why do you think any Leave voter would have voted for that form of Brexit?

 

Sorry for delay. Was away going to a gig / visiting a mate, then returned to a brief glut of work and family issues.....

 

I'm well aware that any solution from No Deal to Remain, including CM 2.0, will be imperfect and cause a lot of dissatisfaction, if not fury.

On a personal level, I'd prefer Remain-and-Reform to CM 2.0, but see the need to compromise if possible.

 

That said, to answer your questions:

- I'd say that CM 2.0 involves leaving the EU, which is all we voted for

- That it avoids "ever closer political union", a fear of many

- That we'd be paying less in contributions to the EU

- That the ECJ would have less say over UK decisions (except SM issues etc.)

- That maintaining close trading and political relationships with our nearest neighbours benefits the UK re. jobs, living standards, security etc.

- That, despite freedom of movement continuing, we could exert more control over immigration (e.g. 3-month limit for EU citizens without jobs/means of support) 

- That domestic legislation can tackle abuse of cheap migrant labour by employers (more labour inspections, legislation on advertising of jobs to locals, prohibition of just recruiting cheap foreign gangs & providing dodgy accommodation as part of pay)

- That domestic legislation can also reduce job insecurity, low pay, lack of cheap housing, public service cuts etc.

- That we have a better chance of returning to a more peaceful, less angry, less polarised country through such compromise

- For those still dissatisfied, that they still have the democratic right to elect a govt/MPs committed to Hard Brexit or to a referendum on Hard Brexit: e.g. by continuing to turn the Tory Party into UKIP or voting for Farage's Brexit Party

 

On your second question, I'm sure that a lot of Leave voters will still be dissatisfied. That is partly because of widespread ignorance about the EU and trade/economic/political realities (Remain voters as well as Leavers). It is also partly because Brexiteer politicians/media took advantage of that ignorance to raise unrealistic expectations - both about what could be achieved (independent national control of economy, policy & immigration with little/no adverse impact on people's lives, or even a glorious future as a great global trading power), AND about what we voted for - that we voted to leave the SM/CU and to have a Hard Brexit, the only form of Brexit, when that is simply a lie.

 

There also seems to be an implicit assumption in your second question that every one of the 17.4m voted for a Hard Brexit, to leave the SM/CU etc. Simply not the case. People voted Remain for all sorts of reasons, including out of a fear of change or a desire to see themselves as nice internationalist people. Similarly, people voted Leave for all sorts of reasons. I accept that many wanted to sever all connections with the EU, felt complete national control was possible or just wanted to reduce immigration. But some also believed that we could leave the EU, exercise more control and still carry on enjoying all or most of the benefits of EU membership re. unrestricted trade etc. I'm sure, like me, in the past you've also heard many Eurosceptics say: "it was alright when it was just a common market / trade arrangement, it's all this United States of Europe stuff that I don't like".....those people would be getting what they wanted.

[Izzy]

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Sorry for delay. Was away going to a gig / visiting a mate, then returned to a brief glut of work and family issues.....

 

No excuse Alf, you know you’re needed 24/7 on this thread at the moment.

Get a grip mate 

[Foxxed]

1 hour ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Whilst my level of sympathy for politicians is pretty low, it must be a little bit tricky for them.

 

17.4m said leave without a definition of what leave was (spare me any leave means leave comments.  It’s lazy) and a proportion of that vote is saying if you dont leave in a way we want, we’re gonna smash up the country.  Then you have 16.4m who want to remain, a million of which (spare me arguments on the actual number) took to the streets to re-enforce that view and now another 6m (spare me the ‘I signed it a million times’ bullshit) petitioning to cancel the whole thing.  There’s big business and politicians on all sides of the argument.

 

There are now also proven illegalities that some want explored and others want ignored.  

 

On top of all this, there’s a rise of the far-right and the far-left, both of which are to be frank, ****ing idiotic.

 

You have a small number of career Eurosceptics who despite wanting to leave the EU their entire lives, don’t seem to have a grip on how it works, why it works, the legalities, procedures and timescales needed to organise leaving.  It’s truly bizarre.  They had a ****ing lesson on what the Customs Union is and how it works despite having voted on it already.  What the actual ****??

 

How exactly did the PM think this would turn out when she triggered Article 50 without even a smidgen of an idea of what the plan was??

 

Personally, I’ve reached a point of anger where if anyone does take to the streets to physically cause chaos, whichever side of the argument they’re on, I’ll be there to fight them.  It feels like that’s all that’s left.

 

I’ve lost my job over this, my savings have now vanished, I have people in the pub telling me I need to ‘go home’ as i’m not welcome in the country anymore (born and ****ing bred here but my mother is asian).  Truly I have nothing left other than to take a hammer to someone and at the minute, that feels like an inevitability.

Sorry to hear you lost your job mate. What did you do? Not sure if I can help but you never know.

 

Edit: Sadly I know sod all about aviation, renewables or financial services.

 

If you're learning French to resurrect your business I can recommend some things to help you learn though. Message me if you want.

Edited 4 April 2019 by Foxxed

[Strokes]

58 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

Interesting a Labour MP this morning trying to push a second referendum  or PV whatever badge you want to put on it and said any deal agreed in Parliament would be pointless as it satisfies neither remain or leavers and is worse than remaining in the EU, then was suggesting the cobbled plan should be put against remain in a peoples vote. I think this option would be the most inflammatory way to settle Brexit as there is no option to leave ie WTO terms, incidentally although I voted leave I am not sure now how I would vote but the option to leave has to be an option otherwise it's morally wrong.

You won’t catch me arguing against any of this.

[The Guvnor]

The Father of the house getting rinsed by Andrew Neil on his fantasy idea that we would have a say in negotiating trade deals if we take the CU way forward.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

The Father of the house getting rinsed by Andrew Neil on his fantasy idea that we would have a say in negotiating trade deals if we take the CU way forward.

That was brilliant television. 

 

Clarke is one of the best media performers out there as well and he got absolutely eviserated by Neil.

 

"You sound like the ERG with your legal facts" - Oh dear Ken.

[Beechey]

Good read for anyone interested in the argument between EEA membership vs customs union membership.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1113725198103187457.html

 

For the record, the guys who run this Twitter account have a number of really good papers you can read on the benefits of EFTA/EEA membership - well worth the time to read if you're so inclined.

Edited 4 April 2019 by Beechey

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47813480

 

And this bloke holds sway over the vast majority of the Amazon rainforest. Scary.

[fuchsntf]

6 hours ago, Buce said:

Bad diets killing more people globally than tobacco, study finds

Eating and drinking better could prevent one in five early deaths, researchers say

 

Unhealthy diets are responsible for 11m preventable deaths globally per year, more even than smoking tobacco, according to a major study.

But the biggest problem is not the junk we eat but the nutritious food we don’t eat, say researchers, calling for a global shift in policy to promote vegetables, fruit, nuts and legumes.

While sugar and trans-fats are harmful, more deaths are caused by the absence of healthy foods in our diet, the study found.

The research is part of the Global Burden of Disease study by the Institute of Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) in Seattle, published in the Lancet medical journal.

Heart attacks and strokes are the main diet-related causes of death, followed by cancers and type 2 diabetes, say researchers.

The study found that eating and drinking better could prevent one in five deaths around the world. Although diets vary from one country to another, eating too few fruits and vegetables and too much sodium (salt) accounted for half of all deaths and two-thirds of the years of disability attributable to diet.

“Our findings show that suboptimal diet is responsible for more deaths than any other risks globally, including tobacco smoking, highlighting the urgent need for improving human diet across nations,” they write.

Rather than trying to persuade people to cut down on sugar, salt and fat, which has been “the main focus of of diet policy debate in the past two decades”, it would be better to promote healthy options, they say.

“Generally in real life people do substitution. When they increase the consumption of something, they decrease the consumption of other things,” said Dr Ashkan Afshin of the IHME, the lead author.

Countries that have a mainly Mediterranean diet eat more fruit, vegetables, nuts and legumes, said Afshin, naming Lebanon, Israel and Iran among the better performers. “But no country has an optimal level of consumption of all the health foods. Even in countries that have a Mediterranean diet, the current intake of many other dietary factors is not optimal.”

The paper is the most comprehensive analysis on the health effects of diet ever conducted, says the IHME.

It looked at 15 different nutrients – some good for health and some not so good. The main risk factors were eating too much salt and too few whole grains, fruit, nuts and seeds, vegetables and omega-3 fatty acids from seafood. Other risk factors considered were consuming high levels of red and processed meat and sugary drinks, low milk consumption and low fibre.

Poor diets were responsible for 10.9m deaths, or 22% of all deaths among adults in 2017. Cardiovascular disease was the leading cause, followed by cancers and diabetes. Nearly half – 45% – were in people younger than 70.

Tobacco was associated with 8m deaths, and high blood pressure was linked to 10.4m deaths.

Israel had the lowest rate of diet-related deaths, at 89 per 100,000 deaths, followed by France, Spain and Japan. The UK ranked 23rd, with 127 diet-related deaths per 100,000 and the US was 43rd with 171. Uzbekistan was last, with 892.

Prof Walter Willett from Harvard University, a co-author of the study, said that the findings were consistent with a recently published analysis of the benefits for cardiovascular health of replacing red meat with plant sources of protein.

“Adoption of diets emphasising soy foods, beans and other healthy plant sources of protein will have important benefits for both human and planetary health,” he said.

Tom Sanders, a professor emeritus of nutrition and dietetics at King’s College London, said the analysis put too much emphasis on individual components rather than the overall diet. “Obesity is a major driver for risk of type 2 diabetes as well as cancer and the health evidence for this relationship is strong. Obesity is caused by eating more food energy than required rather than specific dietary components such as sugar. The trend for populations to become increasingly sedentary is a major reason why there is an imbalance between energy intake and expenditure but increased availability of foods with a high energy density (more calories/gram) makes it too easy to overeat.”

Dr Christopher Murray, a director of the IHME and one of the authors, said: “This study affirms what many have thought for several years – that poor diet is responsible for more deaths than any other risk factor in the world.

“While sodium, sugar, and fat have been the focus of policy debates over the past two decades, our assessment suggests the leading dietary risk factors are high intake of sodium, or low intake of healthy foods, such as whole grains, fruit, nuts and seeds, and vegetables. The paper also highlights the need for comprehensive interventions to promote the production, distribution, and consumption of healthy foods across all nations.”

What about.......chewing tobacco..!!