Coronavirus Thread

[Dahnsouff]

13 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Well maybe he needs me to if he thinks that way 

Ouch, why act so superior? And to think you were doing so well  

[Mickyblueeyes]

Anyone see Charles Walker MP speech in parliament yesterday. Fantastic. If I can find a video, I'll post it up. Did his job as a backbench MP for speaking for many who are voiceless. 

[Facecloth]

55 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Ouch, why act so superior? And to think you were doing so well  

Its not an act 

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, Nod.E said:

Pleased to see news of the return to the 8PM clap met with derision on social media.

 

Such 'look at me' nonsense and does fvck all to help. They need a pay rise not a round of applause.

They do, but seeing as you're not going to give them one, how about giving them a little clap instead.

[Jon the Hat]

15 hours ago, Facecloth said:

I don't see how anyone can claim he's doing even a half decent job tbh. I'm all for opinions, but in this case, there's facts and just plain wrong. Sorry, no disrespect meant.

 

Boris isn't doing his best. He wants everyone to like him, he doesn't want to declare bad news, so he tries to keep it jolly and tell everyone it'll be OK. That might be OK for a leader in some scenarios, but in a pandemic you need forward thinking, tough decision making leaders, not someone trying to be everyone's mate. Hopefully there will be an end to this rubbish, but its much further off than it could have been had he not been in charge.

Boris might well be doing his best, but his best clearly isn't good enough.  We elected him to deliver Brexit, which he has done, but unfortunately he is not the man to manage this crises.  As you say he is essentially delaying every decision until he only has one reasonable option available, at which point he can point at circumstances and say it forced his hand and it's the last thing he wanted.  Zero responsibility.  A leader for the good times, not a global pandemic.

Edited 7 January 2021 by Jon the Hat

[Blue-fox]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9120623/Think-Britain-vaccine-problems-EU-writes-ALEXANDER-VON-SCHOENBURG.html
 

I found that this is worth a read. 

[Col city fan]

25 minutes ago, Blue-fox said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9120623/Think-Britain-vaccine-problems-EU-writes-ALEXANDER-VON-SCHOENBURG.html
 

I found that this is worth a read. 

Good old Brexit

👍

[bovril]

Working from home and there's a steady stream of cars outside my window. During the first lockdown it was eerily quiet. 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

3 hours ago, Nod.E said:

Pleased to see news of the return to the 8PM clap met with derision on social media.

Such 'look at me' nonsense and does fvck all to help.

They need a pay rise not a round of applause.

Can't we do both?

[Blue-fox]

1 hour ago, Col city fan said:

Good old Brexit

👍

I was more reading into how our government is compared to others, from an outside point of view. 

[Nod.E]

1 hour ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Can't we do both?

44% of this country voted Tory! If they clap, they are hypocrites. I reserve my right to judge anybody voting for a party that has been underfunding the NHS for years, before then putting their clapping video on Facebook. Are these people really interested in the NHS, or do they just want to put themselves at the centre of attention? 'Has anybody thought about how thankful I am for the NHS' No, go away.

That leaves 56% of people, some of which genuinely will have been rallying for pay increases, voting accordingly etc. In which case fine. I'll still find it cringey, but fine.

Let's be honest though, those people represent a minority. Even within that 56% you've got a big chunk that didn't vote at all.

And no I am not in that minority, either, but at least I don't pretend I am.

[Dahnsouff]

9 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

44% of this country voted Tory! If they clap, they are hypocrites. I reserve my right to judge anybody voting for a party that has been underfunding the NHS for years, before then putting their clapping video on Facebook. Are these people really interested in the NHS, or do they just want to put themselves at the centre of attention? 'Has anybody thought about how thankful I am for the NHS' No, go away.

That leaves 56% of people, some of which genuinely will have been rallying for pay increases, voting accordingly etc. In which case fine. I'll still find it cringey, but fine.

Let's be honest though, those people represent a minority. Even within that 56% you've got a big chunk that didn't vote at all.

And no I am not in that minority, either, but at least I don't pretend I am.

So 100% of those who voted were only voting on that one issue? (Public sector funding, specifically the NHS) Jesus, I really was not paying attention.

[Nod.E]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

So 100% of those who voted were only voting on that one issue? (Public sector funding, specifically the NHS) Jesus, I really was not paying attention.

Well no but if 'taking back control' was more important than our NHS then, why is there a sudden outpouring of emotion now? It doesn't add up. NHS has been struggling for years and nobody cared. Yes it's obviously struggling more now but the difference in struggle doesn't equate to the difference in public recognition. Bit late to the party, basically.

Imagine if you were sliding from a position of strength to life of the streets. Struggling to afford bills. Partner breaks up with you. Eventually you resort to a sleepingbag next to Sainsbury's Local. Now imagine if your calls for help were completely ignored by all family members. Nothing. Not even recognition that it was happening. Then one year you trip and break your ankle and the whole family turns up to see you. "Great" you think, "they've finally come to help me."

Then they give you round of applause, take a couple of pictures for their Instagram and you never hear from them again.

This is a bit like that.

 

[Dunge]

The main thing I thought about the clapping in the first lockdown was that people were going out there and risking their lives against a disease that was still largely unknown at that point while the rest of us stayed away. I thought that deserved something to mark it on a human level.

 

I wasn’t applauding politics. I was applauding people.

[StanSP]

5 hours ago, Nod.E said:

Pleased to see news of the return to the 8PM clap met with derision on social media.

 

Such 'look at me' nonsense and does fvck all to help. They need a pay rise not a round of applause.

Agreed. It's a great gesture but it is only that. NHS workers and any other key workers now know the appreciation is out there but in reality it really does mean fvck all these days. 

[Nod.E]

20 minutes ago, Dunge said:

The main thing I thought about the clapping in the first lockdown was that people were going out there and risking their lives against a disease that was still largely unknown at that point while the rest of us stayed away. I thought that deserved something to mark it on a human level.

 

I wasn’t applauding politics. I was applauding people.

You're not seeing the link between politics and people, then.

[Buce]

There are so many Covid patients, younger this time. But my hospital is full

Truly, I never imagined it would be this bad.

Once again Covid has spread out along the hospital, the disease greedily taking over ward after ward. Surgical, paediatric, obstetric, orthopaedic; this virus does not discriminate between specialities. Outbreaks bloom even in our “clean” areas and the disease is even more ferociously infectious. Although our local tests do not differentiate strains, I presume this is the new variant.

The patients are younger this time around too, and there are so many of them. They are sick. We are full. There can be no debate: this is much, much worse than the first surge.

 

We start the morning with 10 new patients to be concerned about. These are just the worst of them; we cannot worry about those who, though less unwell, would have had us scared in days gone by.

They are scattered on general wards around the hospital, being given as much oxygen as possible through a standard mask. Most are lying prone on their fronts, breathing rapid, shallow breaths, too breathless to talk, blood oxygen saturations alarmingly low.

The eldest is in his 70s but most are much younger. All urgently need respiratory support. This is ideally given non-invasively using a Cpap mask or very high oxygen flows through the nose. Like most hospitals we have set up a new respiratory-led breathing support unit for this purpose, but it filled up with patients weeks ago.

 

Our intensive care unit, able to deliver these therapies as well as invasive ventilation for the very sickest, is also full despite being stretched and pushed way beyond its previous capacity. Our neighbouring hospitals are under the same pressures, or worse; even if patients were well enough to transfer out safely there is no space to receive them.

We divide and conquer. Some of us rush through the morning ward rounds on the breathing support and intensive care units, desperately hoping to find patients that have improved enough to step down on to a normal ward or could be swapped between the two units according to their needs.

Some of us go to assess the new referrals. We make sure that everything possible has been done to avoid the need for more support but our colleagues have already been thorough. They need to come to us, and soon.

We initiate difficult conversations with some patients who were frailer before catching Covid and would therefore have less chance of benefit from additional breathing therapy. We no longer have the luxury of “giving it a go”; we have to ensure that we select only those with the best chance of survival.

 

Getting it wrong may occupy a precious high dependency bed for many days, often ending in a difficult and symptomatic death while preventing other patients from receiving the correct therapy. Conversely, identifying those who will not survive will allow us to ensure better symptom control and a kinder end to life.

These conversations, often barely intelligible through our PPE, are draining, fraught, brutal. We must justify to patients and their families, and often our colleagues too, why we cannot offer these therapies to everyone.

There is a common misconception about ventilation and respiratory support. These are not treatments; they simply stop people dying while they hopefully heal. Dexamethasone, the steroid identified as effective at reducing mortality in the Recovery trial, is the single best treatment we have available for Covid.

It certainly stops many people dying, but it may not make them better, at least not quickly. This is a large part of our current problem: people who previously died within a few days now need respiratory support for weeks on end. Our mortuary is emptier than it was, but the hospital is much fuller.

We reconvene to discuss what to do with the 10, plus another two referred during the morning rounds. We feel that three have such a poor prognosis that we cannot justify offering more support, leaving nine to accommodate.

A couple of intensive care patients have died; two available beds. We step down a total of four others to normal wards, though two of these much earlier than we would like; we just have to hope they will not sicken again and need to come back.

That’s six accounted for now.

An alarm call goes out as another patient on the unit suddenly deteriorates. We peel off to assess him, gently remove the Cpap mask, transfer him to a side room, call in his family to be with him, administer medications to control terminal symptoms, help comfort the nursing staff who are in tears; they had got to know him and this has come as a huge shock. Still, it’s another bed. Seven.

 

There is no option for the last two but to further expand our breathing support unit, stretching it into yet another bay on scavenged kit with nursing levels way, way below what we used to consider safe. Problem solved, temporarily, but it has taken many hours during which the patients have not received the care they need. Our nurses are amazing but they are being stretched beyond breaking point on a daily basis now.

Meanwhile, maybe 30 new patients have been admitted through A&E, most of them requiring high levels of oxygen. We have no more beds in the hospital and barely enough staff to support the ones we do have. Our A&E fills up again and ambulances queue out the door.

There is barely time to process any of this; I go home and fall asleep. We have not even reached the peak of new cases in our area. The numbers arriving in hospital will peak some days after that and the death rate even later; it takes time for people with Covid to sicken and die. I have not heard of any credible central plans to relieve this pressure, yet already the system is about to fail. It is this that wakes me, anxious, in the small hours of the morning.

There is nowhere left to go.

• The writer is an NHS respiratory consultant who works across a number of hospitals

[Nalis]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

There are so many Covid patients, younger this time. But my hospital is full

Truly, I never imagined it would be this bad.

Once again Covid has spread out along the hospital, the disease greedily taking over ward after ward. Surgical, paediatric, obstetric, orthopaedic; this virus does not discriminate between specialities. Outbreaks bloom even in our “clean” areas and the disease is even more ferociously infectious. Although our local tests do not differentiate strains, I presume this is the new variant.

The patients are younger this time around too, and there are so many of them. They are sick. We are full. There can be no debate: this is much, much worse than the first surge.

 

We start the morning with 10 new patients to be concerned about. These are just the worst of them; we cannot worry about those who, though less unwell, would have had us scared in days gone by.

They are scattered on general wards around the hospital, being given as much oxygen as possible through a standard mask. Most are lying prone on their fronts, breathing rapid, shallow breaths, too breathless to talk, blood oxygen saturations alarmingly low.

The eldest is in his 70s but most are much younger. All urgently need respiratory support. This is ideally given non-invasively using a Cpap mask or very high oxygen flows through the nose. Like most hospitals we have set up a new respiratory-led breathing support unit for this purpose, but it filled up with patients weeks ago.

 

Our intensive care unit, able to deliver these therapies as well as invasive ventilation for the very sickest, is also full despite being stretched and pushed way beyond its previous capacity. Our neighbouring hospitals are under the same pressures, or worse; even if patients were well enough to transfer out safely there is no space to receive them.

We divide and conquer. Some of us rush through the morning ward rounds on the breathing support and intensive care units, desperately hoping to find patients that have improved enough to step down on to a normal ward or could be swapped between the two units according to their needs.

Some of us go to assess the new referrals. We make sure that everything possible has been done to avoid the need for more support but our colleagues have already been thorough. They need to come to us, and soon.

We initiate difficult conversations with some patients who were frailer before catching Covid and would therefore have less chance of benefit from additional breathing therapy. We no longer have the luxury of “giving it a go”; we have to ensure that we select only those with the best chance of survival.

 

Getting it wrong may occupy a precious high dependency bed for many days, often ending in a difficult and symptomatic death while preventing other patients from receiving the correct therapy. Conversely, identifying those who will not survive will allow us to ensure better symptom control and a kinder end to life.

These conversations, often barely intelligible through our PPE, are draining, fraught, brutal. We must justify to patients and their families, and often our colleagues too, why we cannot offer these therapies to everyone.

There is a common misconception about ventilation and respiratory support. These are not treatments; they simply stop people dying while they hopefully heal. Dexamethasone, the steroid identified as effective at reducing mortality in the Recovery trial, is the single best treatment we have available for Covid.

It certainly stops many people dying, but it may not make them better, at least not quickly. This is a large part of our current problem: people who previously died within a few days now need respiratory support for weeks on end. Our mortuary is emptier than it was, but the hospital is much fuller.

We reconvene to discuss what to do with the 10, plus another two referred during the morning rounds. We feel that three have such a poor prognosis that we cannot justify offering more support, leaving nine to accommodate.

A couple of intensive care patients have died; two available beds. We step down a total of four others to normal wards, though two of these much earlier than we would like; we just have to hope they will not sicken again and need to come back.

That’s six accounted for now.

An alarm call goes out as another patient on the unit suddenly deteriorates. We peel off to assess him, gently remove the Cpap mask, transfer him to a side room, call in his family to be with him, administer medications to control terminal symptoms, help comfort the nursing staff who are in tears; they had got to know him and this has come as a huge shock. Still, it’s another bed. Seven.

 

There is no option for the last two but to further expand our breathing support unit, stretching it into yet another bay on scavenged kit with nursing levels way, way below what we used to consider safe. Problem solved, temporarily, but it has taken many hours during which the patients have not received the care they need. Our nurses are amazing but they are being stretched beyond breaking point on a daily basis now.

Meanwhile, maybe 30 new patients have been admitted through A&E, most of them requiring high levels of oxygen. We have no more beds in the hospital and barely enough staff to support the ones we do have. Our A&E fills up again and ambulances queue out the door.

There is barely time to process any of this; I go home and fall asleep. We have not even reached the peak of new cases in our area. The numbers arriving in hospital will peak some days after that and the death rate even later; it takes time for people with Covid to sicken and die. I have not heard of any credible central plans to relieve this pressure, yet already the system is about to fail. It is this that wakes me, anxious, in the small hours of the morning.

There is nowhere left to go.

• The writer is an NHS respiratory consultant who works across a number of hospitals

It would be interesting to know how old the 'much younger' patients are.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

Some more good news: 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-new-life-saving-treatment-can-reduce-risk-of-death-by-24-government-announces-12181646

[Finnaldo]

12 minutes ago, Nalis said:

It would be interesting to know how old the 'much younger' patients are.

More in their 40s and 50s if I was to guess. 

[Dunge]

29 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

You're not seeing the link between politics and people, then.

I’m suggesting you’re not recognising the difference between them.

[RowlattsFox]

The clap was a nice gesture to begin with, but worn out very quickly. No need for it to return but the reaction to it has been pathetic. Forcing the person who's idea it was to distance themselves and release a  statement saying they don't work for the government because of abuse. Jesus Christ. If people want to clap let them.

 

Saw something about new treatment being quite successful, usually used for rheumatoid arthritis. Anything like that has to be positive.  EDIT - see its been mentioned above. 

Edited 7 January 2021 by RowlattsFox

[Alf Bentley]

42 minutes ago, Nalis said:

It would be interesting to know how old the 'much younger' patients are.

 

29 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

More in their 40s and 50s if I was to guess. 

 

I saw a report the other day that included an interview with a senior nurse dealing with Covid patients. She said there were a lot more this time in their "30s, 40s & 50s".

 

I assume that's partly because the elderly are taking more precautions in the knowledge that they're more at risk - and often find it easier to avoid risk (not having to work etc.).

I suppose there's also the maths of it: even if a similar, fairly low proportion of younger people with Covid end up in hospital, the nominal figure will be much higher than before as more people have been infected this time, due to new variant etc.

[Corky]

Deaths still at appalling levels (over 1k again) but 10k fewer positive tests today.

[zorro en españa]

Seeing as there is an interest in age ranges here are the ranges for deaths in hospitals in England yesterday 

 

2 aged between 20-39

47 aged between 40-59

234 aged between 60-79

and

367 aged 80 or over