Coronavirus Thread

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

It's not 'incredibly selfish' not to want to rush out and get something that's new and still argued over country by country, and comparing those people to benefit frauds is very odd. People are getting this because they believe they are protecting themselves, not as a selfless gesture to the low percentage of people who can't get a vaccine.. 

 

5 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

But that's just your opinion on selfishness. 

 

I could just as easily label it 'selfish' that the elderly and the obese demand that fit healthy young people are blackmailed to pump themselves with an experimental drug ...especially when the cure, for young and fit people, is worse than the disease. Bit of a big ask. I'm not saying that. But it's just as arguable.

 

The main point is the vulnerable are now protected and the non vulnerable aren't. And being non vulnerable, it's no biggie. And, yeah yeah, mutations, mutations.

 

if there's mutations, I'm afraid that's gonna happen anyway. You're p1ssing in the wind if you think mutations are avoided by the healthy people of the UK accepting a vaccine

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

That argument cuts both ways though, as unless you are specifically anti vaccine, then by not getting it, you are letting others take the risk on your behalf aren’t you? Theoretical discussion only though, if you don’t want it, don’t get it, I am not bothered either way.  

Interesting discussion.

 

When there is any evidence, any evidence at all, that the vaccine causes problems in healthy adults larger than the ones they could potentially be inflicting upon vulnerable people by not taking it, then there might be questions asked about whether or not they're selfish. Until then, well...seeing as the vulnerable people who can't take the vaccine certainly aren't protected until herd immunity is reached then yes, those people who don't take the vaccine are placing themselves above those people and believing their own rights to do as they like out in the world supersede theirs (as without that herd immunity those vulnerable people can't really go anywhere). That's pretty much the dictionary definition of self-interest IMO.

[Dan LCFC]

12 hours ago, Legend_in_blue said:

To think that vaccine passports were in the realm of the conspiracy theorists last year but now they're being taken as a given.  Strange times.

It's a common theme nowadays. Seems to happen more and more.

[Dan LCFC]

11 hours ago, ttfn said:

I’m an advocate for people getting vaccinated but if we’re going to start mandating that adults have to put something in their body they’re not comfortable with in order to fully participate in society then we’re a lot further a long this slippery slope than I thought we were.

Yep. It's a total disgrace and really reflects how far we've fallen as a society in the past year. There've been some extremely eye-opening things for me.

[fox_up_north]

Is anyone else uncomfortable with having to write down your details to go into pubs? Last time I was in one, the ledger with numbers, names and emails was out for all and sundry to see so I purposely wrote a wrong number.

 

I don't mind giving it directly to the staff but I'm not leaving it out for the world. 

[st albans fox]

29 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

Is anyone else uncomfortable with having to write down your details to go into pubs? Last time I was in one, the ledger with numbers, names and emails was out for all and sundry to see so I purposely wrote a wrong number.

 

I don't mind giving it directly to the staff but I'm not leaving it out for the world. 

Surely the pub can have an app thing for your phone to scan ???  Anyone who doesn’t have a phone can leave their details behind the bar ??

 

if the pub isn’t able to do that then I might suggest they aren’t responsible enough to be open and ‘covid safe’ ???

[Legend_in_blue]

54 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

Is anyone else uncomfortable with having to write down your details to go into pubs? Last time I was in one, the ledger with numbers, names and emails was out for all and sundry to see so I purposely wrote a wrong number.

 

I don't mind giving it directly to the staff but I'm not leaving it out for the world. 

 

I caught several minutes of a documentary on the BBC last night about the global reaction to the virus.  I shook my head in disbelief when a guy in China felt it was a price worth paying for his freedom by using a system that tracked his movements everywhere.  All done via a QR scanner.  Everywhere he went, transport, you name it, scan it.

 

As for ledgers here, once the vulnerable/at risk groups are vaccinated and everyone else before being allowed in a pub the way things are going, why use them?

[Super_horns]

59 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

Is anyone else uncomfortable with having to write down your details to go into pubs? Last time I was in one, the ledger with numbers, names and emails was out for all and sundry to see so I purposely wrote a wrong number.

 

I don't mind giving it directly to the staff but I'm not leaving it out for the world. 

I presume it would be better to show some form of ID with a name or address on if they have enough staff to manage this ?

 

Like you say it’s private information and also anyone could just write anything down .

[CosbehFox]

If you have public transport open to everyone, the vaccine passport is total and utter nonsense. 
 

For example, two people jump on an inner city train or bus. They still opposite each other, socially distanced but touch the same surfaces as each other. One is going to work with no passport and the other is off for a few drinks with a passport. Surely you’ve already achieved the mixing there that you wanted to avoid? 
 

I see they have mentioned about using it for the FA Cup Final which is useless if even 25 to 30 per cent use the tube to get there 

Edited 2 April 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[yorkie1999]

11 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

24 hours since having the AZ vaccine, my arm is a tiny bit sore and I've felt a wee bit more tired than normal. Fingers crossed that's as bad as it gets. Had plenty of paracetamol as many suggested,

The Peepul Centre was excellent in the organisation, by the way. Hugely impressed with how it was run.

I know a number of people who’ve had AZ, including myself, and they all said they were ached and were really tired about a week after having it.

[yorkie1999]

18 hours ago, ttfn said:

I’m an advocate for people getting vaccinated but if we’re going to start mandating that adults have to put something in their body they’re not comfortable with in order to fully participate in society then we’re a lot further a long this slippery slope than I thought we were.

We’ve done it before

[Buce]

36 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

 

I caught several minutes of a documentary on the BBC last night about the global reaction to the virus.  I shook my head in disbelief when a guy in China felt it was a price worth paying for his freedom by using a system that tracked his movements everywhere.  All done via a QR scanner.  Everywhere he went, transport, you name it, scan it.

 

As for ledgers here, once the vulnerable/at risk groups are vaccinated and everyone else before being allowed in a pub the way things are going, why use them?

 

Assuming you have a mobile phone - and doesn't everyone - that system is already in place.

[SpacedX]

5 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I know a number of people who’ve had AZ, including myself, and they all said they were ached and were really tired about a week after having it.

I had it on Wednesday - the aching started 24 hours later, much better today. The fever, muscle aches or other symptoms of inflammation are simply the body mounting a defence having been tricked into mobilising against the a pathogen, without getting the virus. The innate immune response form antigen presenting cells sound the alarm having detected something that doesn't belong, summoning an army of cytokines, chemokines, and prostaglandins, which recruit yet more immune cells and have all sorts of physical effects. I'm told cytokines dilate blood vessels to increase blood flow, causing swelling and redness. They can also irritate nerves, causing pain. Cytokines and chemokines induce inflammation, which is also painful. Prostaglandins interact directly with local pain receptors. That's why you feel like shit - the inflammatory response, like a chemical fire alarm. The older you are its seems, in general, the less severe side effects - the difference being in the way the early innate phase responds. But even two people the same age can have significantly different reactions to a vaccine. There is enormous genetic diversity in our immune systems which means that some people's immune systems get more revved up and are more prone to reacting aggressively. So those that go into full blown flu-like symptoms have experienced an overreactive immune response. There is also some evidence, that having had a previous coronavirus infection, can result in an incredibly strong immune response after vaccination.

 

The Oxford-Astra Zeneca vaccine is derived from adenovirus  - a weakened version of a common cold virus from chimpanzees. It has been modified to look more like coronavirus and it takes genes from the spike protein - but it can't cause illness. I assume that like most vaccines it also contains adjuvants that are also designed to stimulate antigen-presenting cells and boost the adaptive immune response which gives immunity. As the vaccine enters your cells they start to produce the spike protein - the body reacts by deploying antibodies and T-cells to destroy those with the spike protein. In the event of catching the coronavirus later, these antibodies and B-cells and T-cells are naturally triggered to fight the virus. 

 

It is not yet known how long protection lasts with any of the coronavirus vaccines. It may be that people need annual vaccinations, as is the case with the flu jab.

[yorkie1999]

35 minutes ago, Line-X said:

I had it on Wednesday - the aching started 24 hours later, much better today. The fever, muscle aches or other symptoms of inflammation are simply the body mounting a defence having been tricked into mobilising against the a pathogen, without getting the virus. The innate immune response form antigen presenting cells sound the alarm having detected something that doesn't belong, summoning an army of cytokines, chemokines, and prostaglandins, which recruit yet more immune cells and have all sorts of physical effects. I'm told cytokines dilate blood vessels to increase blood flow, causing swelling and redness. They can also irritate nerves, causing pain. Cytokines and chemokines induce inflammation, which is also painful. Prostaglandins interact directly with local pain receptors. That's why you feel like shit - the inflammatory response, like a chemical fire alarm. The older you are its seems, in general, the less severe side effects - the difference being in the way the early innate phase responds. But even two people the same age can have significantly different reactions to a vaccine. There is enormous genetic diversity in our immune systems which means that some people's immune systems get more revved up and are more prone to reacting aggressively. So those that go into full blown flu-like symptoms have experienced an overreactive immune response. There is also some evidence, that having had a previous coronavirus infection, can result in an incredibly strong immune response after vaccination.

 

The Oxford-Astra Zeneca vaccine is derived from adenovirus  - a weakened version of a common cold virus from chimpanzees. It has been modified to look more like coronavirus and it takes genes from the spike protein - but it can't cause illness. I assume that like most vaccines it also contains adjuvants that are also designed to stimulate antigen-presenting cells and boost the adaptive immune response which gives immunity. As the vaccine enters your cells they start to produce the spike protein - the body reacts by deploying antibodies and T-cells to destroy those with the spike protein. In the event of catching the coronavirus later, these antibodies and B-cells and T-cells are naturally triggered to fight the virus. 

 

It is not yet known how long protection lasts with any of the coronavirus vaccines. It may be that people need annual vaccinations, as is the case with the flu jab.

Don’t worry, the 2nd round is in the post. 

Edited 2 April 2021 by yorkie1999

[SpacedX]

38 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Don’t worry, the 2nd round is in the post. 

You had to edit that?

 

Actually, any side effects associated with the second round are likely to be milder than the first...unless of course you had Pfizer-Biotech 

[Costock_Fox]

5 days since my jab and I still feel tired and groggy. Feel like I could go back to bed pretty easily right now, well worth it though.

[StanSP]

3 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

Is anyone else uncomfortable with having to write down your details to go into pubs? Last time I was in one, the ledger with numbers, names and emails was out for all and sundry to see so I purposely wrote a wrong number.

 

I don't mind giving it directly to the staff but I'm not leaving it out for the world. 

I went to a restaurant in London and they had the same. Just a book for people to put their details on - name, phone number, e-mail I think. I did wonder what data protection laws they were breaking  

 

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

 

Some more info on the thread there.

[reynard]

15 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

But that's just your opinion on selfishness. 

 

I could just as easily label it 'selfish' that the elderly and the obese demand that fit healthy young people are blackmailed to pump themselves with an experimental drug ...especially when the cure, for young and fit people, is worse than the disease. Bit of a big ask. I'm not saying that. But it's just as arguable.

 

The main point is the vulnerable are now protected and the non vulnerable aren't. And being non vulnerable, it's no biggie. And, yeah yeah, mutations, mutations.

 

if there's mutations, I'm afraid that's gonna happen anyway. You're p1ssing in the wind if you think mutations are avoided by the healthy people of the UK accepting a vaccine

 

 

I'd say it comes down to whether you believe one of the main points of a society is to help and protect those in society more vulnerable than themselves. To me that is the sign of a civilised and developed society. Evidence seems to be pointing towards the chance that vaccinating people stops them spreading the disease and reducing their viral load. There is therefore a good chance that fewer people become infected. The fewer people that become infected the less chance there is for mutations to develop thus so-called healthy people being vaccinated helps to protect the whole of society.

Of course I understand that people are scared of this vaccination because it is so new. But then there is always a chance that any drug, any vaccine you take, can have side effects. There is not one drug or vaccine that is 100% safe for everyone to take.

 

Oh by the way not everyone who is elderly is unfit nor do I hear them marching down the street demanding so-called young and fit people get the jab and the cure is certainly in the huge majority of cases not worse than the illness itself which even for young and so-called fit people can lead to complications and long covid.

Obviously it is fine if people don't want to get vaccinated but in the short term, at least, there is a chance they may not be able to do all the things they wish to and they will just have to accept they have traded those liberties for not being vaccinated.

Edited 2 April 2021 by reynard

[OrielCaziado]

23 minutes ago, StanSP said:

I went to a restaurant in London and they had the same. Just a book for people to put their details on - name, phone number, e-mail I think. I did wonder what data protection laws they were breaking  

 

 

Was out with a few mates one night and the pub we were in had a clipboard where you was supposed to write your contact details. Literally nothing stopping anybody taking a photo of the sheet with all the names addresses and numbers on and doing what they wanted with the info. I think I was Jamie Vardy that night and my phone number was 999 😉.  

[StanSP]

6 minutes ago, OrielCaziado said:

Was out with a few mates one night and the pub we were in had a clipboard where you was supposed to write your contact details. Literally nothing stopping anybody taking a photo of the sheet with all the names addresses and numbers on and doing what they wanted with the info. I think I was Jamie Vardy that night and my phone number was 999 😉.  

I thought about putting fake details then realised it's totally counter-productive to the actual 'contact tracing' thing so if there was an outbreak, it's not great if I do need to be contacted...

[OrielCaziado]

3 minutes ago, StanSP said:

I thought about putting fake details then realised it's totally counter-productive to the actual 'contact tracing' thing so if there was an outbreak, it's not great if I do need to be contacted...

I’m fine when it’s done professionally but absolutely no way I’m signing some out on display sheet that all and sundry can see. I know of a lad who’s daughter got some unwanted texts from a stranger and she was sure it was because he’d got her number from such a source. My regular pub you filled in a card and it was posted into a box so at least no other punters could see your details. 

[reynard]

37 minutes ago, StanSP said:

I went to a restaurant in London and they had the same. Just a book for people to put their details on - name, phone number, e-mail I think. I did wonder what data protection laws they were breaking  

 

 

It depends on how they keep the details and whether or not it is explained to you at the time what you are "signing up" to. It could possibly be the case that a general statement saying why the details were being takend could be enough but storage is an issue. If they comply with the above then as long as they don't share your info for any other reason or with anyone other than the stated recipeint (in this case govt tracketc) then I don't believe they are transgressing data protection. It is all a bit of a legal minefield though.

[dsr-burnley]

At some point last summer, when cases were very low, I was on Blackpool Central Pier.  Someone on the door was taking names and numbers and time of arrival from people without a smartphone (yes, we do still exist) bit no-one was taking exit details.  As a practical aid to track and trace, it was useless.  It was just box ticking.  Happily no-one saw the need to box-tick by sending isolation notices to everyone on the pier on a given day.

[RowlattsFox]

My local had a list at the front door for everyone to see. Nothing about times you arrived and left either. 

 

International travel and large events I can see a reason for a covid passport, in the short term. But it's not sustainable. I think and hope enough people will have it to not make them necessary long term. 

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, Legend_in_blue said:

 

I caught several minutes of a documentary on the BBC last night about the global reaction to the virus.  I shook my head in disbelief when a guy in China felt it was a price worth paying for his freedom by using a system that tracked his movements everywhere.  All done via a QR scanner.  Everywhere he went, transport, you name it, scan it.

 

As for ledgers here, once the vulnerable/at risk groups are vaccinated and everyone else before being allowed in a pub the way things are going, why use them?

One thing this crisis has indeed shown is how different people and cultures address a global crisis caused by nature, even though it's a (relatively) mild one.

 

I wonder if the same would hold if the next natural crisis (and there will be one) is more severe and has the capacity to directly (rather than just indirectly) affect everyone across all demographics, not just a smaller number.