Why did we sack Craig Shakespeare...?

[SheppyFox]

Shakey is ? 

[Collibosher70]

3 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Makes a lot of sense

 

i would say that as I understand it, allardyce to Everton was initiated by allardyce rather than Everton so if they do go for him they are showing a bit of desperation.  However, he would get that set of players safe by spring, especially as they will sign a proper CF in January 

 

if shakey did go there then expect the ‘LCFC player to Everton‘ rumours to go into overdrive !!

Brilliant....Leo off you go

[Lovejoy]

Allardyce didn't fancy Leicester but does Everton. Maybe he'll only go for a team in the bottom three ?

[Bossman Blessed It]

On 10/23/2017 at 13:36, Cardiff_Fox said:

If Rudkin had severe reservations about Shakey, then how come he had no plan B for the failure he thought would occur? The guy is a charlatan.

 

If you had a belief that he wasn't up to the job, you'd be considering what other managers could be employed. Instead he's got rid to ensure he is not the scapegoat (see Terry Robinson first PL season) and now started a managerial search. A competent DoF should be well aware of whose available and who he'd like at the club. 

 

I think you make a valid point there. A genuinely competent director of football would have evaluated the options before sacking any manager - moreover, shouldn't keel to the 'popular option'. While, as fans we all loved Shakespeare for everything he'd done for the club, including reinvigorating an underperforming squad, it still perhaps wasn't reason to hire him if he wasn't convinced himself. Personally, given the difficulty of our opening fixtures, it seemed as though the board were ready to sack Shakey as soon as the chips seemed down. Hindsight is a wonderful thing indeed, but certainly looking back on it they could have appointed someone else at the end of last season to ensure that they could build the squad they wanted for this season. It shows lack of foresight from Rudkin, but timekeeping clearly isn't his forte anyway. What is irritating is that he appears to be getting away with every single balls up he makes, while delivering bad news to all the people we love having at the club. 

[bald reynard]

58 minutes ago, Outfox the Fox said:

Just been speaking to a Journo at the Liverpool Echo and he has heard from a source at Everton, that the Club are in discussions with Sam Allardyce over the vacant Managers job. Big Sam has said that if appointed, he would want to bring in his own Coaching team, of Sammy Lee and CRAIG SHAKESPEARE. A reunion with Steve Walsh on the cards?

Presumably, Walsh as DoF, would have a great deal of say in who is appointed as Manager.  I wouldn't be surprised, if an 'Allardyce and Shakespeare ticket' would appeal to him !  

[vanity]

55 minutes ago, winteriscoming said:

Shakespeare would never have played that system yesterday. He was tactically clueless and thought king was the answer to the problems. He was far to concerned about not losing rather than being postitive and going for a win. As shown at Huddersfield and bournemouth. It was too predictable every week 442 and didn't have confidence in himself which showed in his interviews after matches. He said after the arsenal game he made wrong subs - good managers don't admit that, they learn from it and develop from it. He did neither and it was the right thing to sack him. 

While I completely disagree Shakey was tactically clueless -- and results last season suggest he had the tactical ability to be a good in-game manager -- I think he had his preferred vision for how Leicester was going to evolve, and struggled figuring out how to move forward when that was thwarted.

 

Certainly he seemed to be revamping Leicester's squad, bringing in players who were more versatile than what we had and added new facets to the attack, defenders who could play out the back, players better on the ball to improve  the linkage play and possession, Iborra as a utility player who would allow us to go from a defensive 4-4-2 to an attacking 3-5-2 when we gained possession, to play more of the 3-4-3 we saw 2H vs.  Athletico Madrid, Iheanacho to replace Shinji and improve our on-the-ball play up top and give us more scoring, etc.

 

But when the schedule and injuries and the Silva debacle conspired against him, he struggled to adapt. His mandate was to win games, including games against the top-6. Players on this squad have played elite sides rather well, and while we performed well enough to be competitive, we could not manage wins, and the poor quality of play against inferior teams reflected a team without a clear identity, kinda caught between two styles.

 

I think Shakey would still be our manager if he'd gotten Silva, or if Matty James hadn't gotten injured, or if Iborra hadn't gotten injured. But he simply didn't have the pieces for what he wanted to do, so he resorted to a half-ass attempt while he waited for players to become available to remake the team. And that isn't good enough in the Prem, you need to make due with what you have, and you need to win. If he learns that lesson, perhaps he can be the gaffer again someplace else.

 

 

[winteriscoming]

14 minutes ago, vanity said:

While I completely disagree Shakey was tactically clueless -- and results last season suggest he had the tactical ability to be a good in-game manager -- I think he had his preferred vision for how Leicester was going to evolve, and struggled figuring out how to move forward when that was thwarted.

 

Certainly he seemed to be revamping Leicester's squad, bringing in players who were more versatile than what we had and added new facets to the attack, defenders who could play out the back, players better on the ball to improve  the linkage play and possession, Iborra as a utility player who would allow us to go from a defensive 4-4-2 to an attacking 3-5-2 when we gained possession, to play more of the 3-4-3 we saw 2H vs.  Athletico Madrid, Iheanacho to replace Shinji and improve our on-the-ball play up top and give us more scoring, etc.

 

But when the schedule and injuries and the Silva debacle conspired against him, he struggled to adapt. His mandate was to win games, including games against the top-6. Players on this squad have played elite sides rather well, and while we performed well enough to be competitive, we could not manage wins, and the poor quality of play against inferior teams reflected a team without a clear identity, kinda caught between two styles.

 

I think Shakey would still be our manager if he'd gotten Silva, or if Matty James hadn't gotten injured, or if Iborra hadn't gotten injured. But he simply didn't have the pieces for what he wanted to do, so he resorted to a half-ass attempt while he waited for players to become available to remake the team. And that isn't good enough in the Prem, you need to make due with what you have, and you need to win. If he learns that lesson, perhaps he can be the gaffer again someplace else.

 

 

Don't get me wrong he did well at the end of last season but all he did was revert back to the system we played when we won the League. The players were happy with this and eventually started to put a shift in. I would be amazed if he got a managers job elsewhere. I will admit he was unlucky with injuries this season but I'd be less than convinced he would of made the right selections if everyone was available - he had his favourites. 

[Gazza M]

If Shakey wants to get back in to management he needs to go down to league 1/2 and do his apprenticeship. If he wants to stay as a coach now, he could get a job in the prem. Maybe Everton using his links to Walsh?! I don't see him managing again. If I was him I would strive to be the best coach in the country and maybe get another go in the England set up one day. Good luck to him whatever he chooses. 

[Legend_in_blue]

I don't agree that having Silva in the frame or a fully fit Iborra would have made the difference between CS being here and not.

 

With a fully fit squad and Silva to choose from, nothing would have changed. 

 

The guy had no clear game plan, players weren't set up right for games and the mentality in-game was totally wrong.  He never wavered from 442 and became as predictable as Pearson was. 

 

In order to be successful in this league you need to take a risk - he's no risk taker.  Plays safe, too defensive minded, teams don't roll over us but we lose by the odd goal.  Fine margins and all that comes with it.  Problem with that approach is all that's needed are fine margins to see us off and we offered nothing in response most of the time.

 

Time will tell on CP, yes we were impressive yesterday but Everton are dire at present.

 

 

[Outfox the Fox]

On 30/10/2017 at 16:30, Outfox the Fox said:

Just been speaking to a Journo at the Liverpool Echo and he has heard from a source at Everton, that the Club are in discussions with Sam Allardyce over the vacant Managers job. Big Sam has said that if appointed, he would want to bring in his own Coaching team, of Sammy Lee and Craig Shakespeare. A reunion with Steve Walsh on the cards? As Director of Football, he will have a big say in who is appointed.

The Echo journo has just told me that Allardyce is in Liverpool today, meeting the Everton bigwigs, moving towards an agreement for him to be appointed. Lee and Shakespeare ARE part of the package. Although there is a clause in his release from Palace of a payment of £2m compensation, if he moves to a new job before 1/1/18, the amount is a lot less than what Burnley will be demanding for Dyche. That is a factor.  

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

1 minute ago, Outfox the Fox said:

The Echo journo has just told me that Allardyce is in Liverpool today, meeting the Everton bigwigs, moving towards an agreement for him to be appointed. Lee and Shakespeare ARE part of the package. Although there is a clause in his release from Palace of a payment of £2m compensation, if he moves to a new job before 1/1/18, this is a lot less than what Burnley will be demanding for Dyche. That is a factor.  

I hope this happens.  Shakespeare in a role he deserves and is suited to.  The owner's sacking of him a good move for everyone

[Daggers]

On 10/22/2017 at 14:45, Larry_LCFC said:

Make no mistake we were going down under Shakespeare.

Yes, but he explained that he was very drunk at the time - and now self-identifies as gay.

 

So there's that.

[fuchsntf]

40 minutes ago, Outfox the Fox said:

The Echo journo has just told me that Allardyce is in Liverpool today, meeting the Everton bigwigs, moving towards an agreement for him to be appointed. Lee and Shakespeare ARE part of the package. Although there is a clause in his release from Palace of a payment of £2m compensation, if he moves to a new job before 1/1/18, the amount is a lot less than what Burnley will be demanding for Dyche. That is a factor.  

I'd like to see Dyche stay and finish the job at Burnley, they could get Themselves into 6-7th place, or at least competing for that area in the table.

Everton, having a chance of CS, with Allardyce  in front of him, would be a great move.

 

I still believe Allardyce has still got that one good PL job in him.I was disappointed he was pushed out of the England job.CS at Everton, could see him also rekindle a coaching position for England as well....

 

[lancyclaret]

1 hour ago, Outfox the Fox said:

The Echo journo has just told me that Allardyce is in Liverpool today, meeting the Everton bigwigs, moving towards an agreement for him to be appointed. Lee and Shakespeare ARE part of the package. Although there is a clause in his release from Palace of a payment of £2m compensation, if he moves to a new job before 1/1/18, the amount is a lot less than what Burnley will be demanding for Dyche. That is a factor.  

Dyche's compensation would only be £2.5 million (one year's wages) but he would want to take ALL his backroom staff with him eg assistant Ian Woan, first team coach Tony Loughran, quite a few others.

 

This would cost Everton quite a bit and I doubt Dyche would want the likes of Steve Walsh, Steve Unsworth, Joe Royle and Duncan Ferguson complicating things.

 

And while I am sure Burnley would not stand in SD's way, I am not so sure they would be as happy to let all the backroom staff go to a "potential" relegation rival (that's what happened when the rat Coyle jumped ship to go to relegation ribal Bolton in 2009/10). This time, could they put Woan and Loughran on "gardening leave" to prevent them linking up with Dyche until the summer?

[ARTY_FOX]

He wasn't a good manager. His tactical decisions were appalling setting us up with 0 positivity. Surrendering games for no good reason. His substitutions were baffling at best. He was just showing everyone why he's a football coach and not a football manager. Shame though

[Wymsey]

He was reluctant to change things to adjust to certain game periods, and both failed to use the offensive way that suited the side and failed to be innovative in his approach.

[vanity]

On 10/30/2017 at 11:13, winteriscoming said:

Don't get me wrong he did well at the end of last season but all he did was revert back to the system we played when we won the League. The players were happy with this and eventually started to put a shift in. I would be amazed if he got a managers job elsewhere. I will admit he was unlucky with injuries this season but I'd be less than convinced he would of made the right selections if everyone was available - he had his favourites. 

I saw him make effective substitutions last season. I saw us ditch the 4-4-2 when it wasn't working at times, and move to a 3-4-3 that we liked the look of. Yes, he had the pulse of the locker room, and showed his confidence in the players who had won the league vs. the new transfers, but to overlook that by diminishing it as a tactical decision ignores the fact that it was the right move, and it wasn't obvious to a very good manager in Claudio.

 

Frankly, I don't actually think that the biggest issue with Claudio was the formation fiddling, or that the biggest thing for the turnaround was us going to a 4-4-2. I think the problem was the team won the league, and then suddenly we had new players being wedged into the line-up over players who had been there, and the team felt a bit betrayed, like wtf is Musa doing playing gaffer, he sucks! But Claudio was under pressure bc they were his signings, and it led to a situation where the best team wasn't playing, damaging the chemistry in the locker room, and guys weren't going 100. I am sure the formation tinkering played some role, but I think that Shakey going back to the players who had done it and that had chemistry was probably as important as going to a 4-4-2, if not more so. Bc when we saw Shakey go away from the 4-4-2 situationally, the team responded.

 

I know we disagree, but it takes guts as the caretaker manager to say "hey ruddy, let the owners know, those players they shelled out big cash for? They're coming off the bench if they see the field at all." In the end, I think Shakey should go manage a Championship side if he can get an offer, or go lower if necessary. If nothing makes sense, and if he speaks spanish, maybe he could go work at AM for a stretch, Diego was a fan, and Shakey is a great number 2. Keep building his skill set, get outside England, get some exposure to new ideas, maybe he can return as a manager someplace.

 

Idk which of us is right, but I suspect we both hope the guy lands on his feet.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

I think ultimately we sacked Shakey (and i’m sure this will be confirmed before long) because he was fvcking shit.

[foxinsocks]

we sacked him because the club noticed the slightly higher than usual dissing he was getting on ft

[winteriscoming]

1 hour ago, vanity said:

I saw him make effective substitutions last season. I saw us ditch the 4-4-2 when it wasn't working at times, and move to a 3-4-3 that we liked the look of. Yes, he had the pulse of the locker room, and showed his confidence in the players who had won the league vs. the new transfers, but to overlook that by diminishing it as a tactical decision ignores the fact that it was the right move, and it wasn't obvious to a very good manager in Claudio.

 

Frankly, I don't actually think that the biggest issue with Claudio was the formation fiddling, or that the biggest thing for the turnaround was us going to a 4-4-2. I think the problem was the team won the league, and then suddenly we had new players being wedged into the line-up over players who had been there, and the team felt a bit betrayed, like wtf is Musa doing playing gaffer, he sucks! But Claudio was under pressure bc they were his signings, and it led to a situation where the best team wasn't playing, damaging the chemistry in the locker room, and guys weren't going 100. I am sure the formation tinkering played some role, but I think that Shakey going back to the players who had done it and that had chemistry was probably as important as going to a 4-4-2, if not more so. Bc when we saw Shakey go away from the 4-4-2 situationally, the team responded.

 

I know we disagree, but it takes guts as the caretaker manager to say "hey ruddy, let the owners know, those players they shelled out big cash for? They're coming off the bench if they see the field at all." In the end, I think Shakey should go manage a Championship side if he can get an offer, or go lower if necessary. If nothing makes sense, and if he speaks spanish, maybe he could go work at AM for a stretch, Diego was a fan, and Shakey is a great number 2. Keep building his skill set, get outside England, get some exposure to new ideas, maybe he can return as a manager someplace.

 

Idk which of us is right, but I suspect we both hope the guy lands on his feet.

I agree and disagree with some of the points you make which is what the ft is all about. I just don't think he should of got the job in the first case. I do wish him well for the future because of what he achieved with us. I can't ever see him progressing as a manager unless like you say he goes lower League and has success. The main problem this season was his subs which were dreadfull - he was reactive rather than being proactive. 

[brucey]

I actually thought he was doing fine apart from the terrible subs.

 

Keep in mind we haven't had to play a 'decent' team yet since the Shakey sacking, so jury's still out on whether we're any better now.

[Wymsey]

The Sunderland job would be quite a good project for him tbh.

Clear the big-wage deadwood, some who are over 30 and are on the decline - like O'Shea for instance, develop the highly-rated youngsters like Watmore etc and let them play regularly (who will have the more hunger in wanting to succeed/prove a point or two).

Although I can see Shakespeare wanting a bit of a break for a bit.

[volpeazzurro]

2 hours ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

I think ultimately we sacked Shakey (and i’m sure this will be confirmed before long) because he was fvcking shit.

Yep, Realist by name Realist by nature, like your style. He was crap. 

[Bunyip]

On 30/10/2017 at 17:07, st albans fox said:

Makes a lot of sense

 

i would say that as I understand it, allardyce to Everton was initiated by allardyce rather than Everton so if they do go for him they are showing a bit of desperation.  However, he would get that set of players safe by spring, especially as they will sign a proper CF in January 

 

if shakey did go there then expect the ‘LCFC player to Everton‘ rumours to go into overdrive !!

The same players who could not understand his tactics while he was manager here? the same players who are now responding to a manager who knows what he is doing at this level? I don't expect any kind of exodus.

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Bunyip said:

The same players who could not understand his tactics while he was manager here? the same players who are now responding to a manager who knows what he is doing at this level? I don't expect any kind of exodus.

Presumably you mean Appleton’s two games - I’m not convinced the players knew what they were doing last Sunday for the entire 90 mins !!