Also in the news

[leicsmac]

And to add a little levity from this side of the world...

 

 

"Strongly Dislike"

 

NB. Everyone using appropriate facial coverings and being socially responsible, too.

[ozleicester]

The "outrage" about graffiti and statues seems incongruous when the PEOPLE are being assaulted, beaten and killed.

[Pliskin]

3 hours ago, ozleicester said:

The "outrage" about graffiti and statues seems incongruous when the PEOPLE are being assaulted, beaten and killed.

Unless I’ve missed something, no one in the UK has been beaten, or killed........ aside from the majority being peaceful protesters there are a few practicing thuggery and mindless violence.

 

And furthermore, pulling down a statue of a slave trader is one thing, I don't really think anyone is remotely bothered about that. But defacing and attempting to burn WWII monuments clearly shows an ignorance to history.... For attempting to burn a flag at the cenotaph? a monument erected to honor millions of lives lost during the great war and WWII, in honor of six million Jewish lives lost at the hands of a fascist, racist regime? Mindlessly attacking Police officers in the UK won't change anything, and neither will defacing WWII monuments. 

Edited 8 June 2020 by Pliskin

[CosbehFox]

7 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I can see how the upsetting film of the Floyd killing could have triggered justified anger in some who attacked the Colston statue - particularly against the background of longer-standing grievances and the current feverish atmosphere. Mind you, I do suspect that some of those involved will have been mindlessly anti-authority Class War types or virtue-signalling Twitterites. A concerted democratic campaign to have the Colston statue removed would have been better - and would probably have succeeded in the current climate, as you say.

 

I don't think a democratic decision to remove a statue needs to imply the rewriting of history - just a decision to stop publicly honouring or glorifying someone, which is what a statue does. I was down in Bristol a couple of years ago and visited a museum down by the docks. I don't remember many details but it had a good exhibition covering Bristol's history of wider trade, slave trading and other history in context. I can't remember what coverage there was of Colston, but I assume he was covered - and rightly so. We need to learn about history and significant individuals in history, in context, both the good and the bad - part of why Colston is such a big name there is because he was a big philanthropist for the local community, donating money made from all sorts of trading, including, yes, slave trading. It's possible to have exhibitions covering that (including the context & the good stuff he did) while deciding that a glorifying statue is no longer appropriate.

 

I do hope this comes to an end now, though - especially after attacks on the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph. As you say, there's a risk of conflict between protesters and the police (who seem to have wisely taken a softly-softly approach, at least in Bristol, but could not carry on doing so indefinitely) - not to mention the ongoing health risk. But there's also the risk of retaliatory actions from those enraged at such incidents - and even from Far Right elements such as Yaxley-Lennon and his ilk. If idiots keep doing stuff like the Churchill/Cenotaph attacks, it's only a matter of time before others turn up to oppose them - or to attack statues of Mandela or whoever. There are real grievances but this isn't the way to address them.

That has actually happened but it was ignored by the local Bristol authorities at the time. 
 

There was a story regards the music venue, Colston Hall too and there were plans to rename that before Covid 19. 
 

Although you quite easily not know where to stop with Bristol’s references to the slavery trade, they are numerous street names related to it too

[st albans fox]

16 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

That has actually happened but it was ignored by the local Bristol authorities at the time. 
 

There was a story regards the music venue, Colston Hall too and there were plans to rename that before Covid 19. 
 

Although you quite easily not know where to stop with Bristol’s references to the slavery trade, they are numerous street names related to it too

in the new climate of recognising all our responsibilities, perhaps it might have been a different outcome ??

 

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Regarding the Colston statue, my viewpoint on that is pretty much the same as it is with statues of Confederate "heroes" in the US - slavery was as wrong then as it is now even though it was "legal", many people knew it but couldn't act out against it because the slaveowners had too much political power, and as such those historical figures involved in the perpetuation of it shouldn't be commemorated at all.

 

Put them in a museum where people can learn about what they did, but a statue in the outdoors is designed to deify and I can't see any reason, any reason at all, for those whose sole fame and profit was being involved in the slave trade being deified.

Where does it stop ?  Everyone has skeletons in their cupboard  ........ I suspect you won’t have any statues anywhere in the end.  are there any statutes of roman emperors?  surely they must be up to their necks in stuff ...... 

 

being a slave trader balanced only by philanthropy on the back of that is clearly not much of a reason for a statue (They weren’t really aware of his background when they put up the statue)  but I promise you that once you start down this road it won’t be easy to stop it .....
 

 

[Innovindil]

4 hours ago, ozleicester said:

The "outrage" about graffiti and statues seems incongruous when the PEOPLE are being assaulted, beaten and killed.

Absolutely right. 

 

Don't give a monkeys about a slavers statue. More bothered by the dozens of officers injured over the past 2/3 days. 

[Dahnsouff]

That is enough for me, I am going to move to the 1950s

[Pliskin]

4 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

in the new climate of recognising all our responsibilities, perhaps it might have been a different outcome ??

 

Where does it stop ?  Everyone has skeletons in their cupboard  ........ I suspect you won’t have any statues anywhere in the end.  are there any statutes of roman emperors?  surely they must be up to their necks in stuff ...... 

 

being a slave trader balanced only by philanthropy on the back of that is clearly not much of a reason for a statue (They weren’t really aware of his background when they put up the statue)  but I promise you that once you start down this road it won’t be easy to stop it .....
 

 

Nail, hit. Most of our influential historical characters are marred with controversy and have probably done more harm than good when you look at all of their life achievements. You can probably link most cities to slavery. London, Liverpool and Glasgow to name a few were all built using slave traders money. Every nations history is marred with wrong doings and acts of inhumanity. Once one statue topples, what then? more statues? Buildings when does it stop? No sane level headed person supports racism, but I'd argue that tearing cities down in an attempt to erase history wont change the future, for example should the Germans flatten their entire country? Will that erase Hitlers doings? No, but by having monuments act as a constant reminder for the people of Germany, a reminder of what their ancestors did and a constant reminder of the horrors they inflicted on the world, they're certainly not celebrated... Understanding history is important, because there is no better way to improve, removing it does not suddenly make the world a better place. 

 

But changes are implemented by forward thinkers, and it is that mentality we need to collectively adopt if we're to make strides towards the common goal. 

[Dahnsouff]

Bang on @Pliskin

Removing the warning signs of the past (statues, etc) serves only to serve those cannot stand to be reminded of such events, whereas in reality, we all need reminding of them.

[StanSP]

Holy shit! 

 

More videos in the thread, including the guy who reached in and got shot, could have saved so many lives. Absolute hero. 

 

 

[Finnaldo]

35 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Nail, hit. Most of our influential historical characters are marred with controversy and have probably done more harm than good when you look at all of their life achievements. You can probably link most cities to slavery. London, Liverpool and Glasgow to name a few were all built using slave traders money. Every nations history is marred with wrong doings and acts of inhumanity. Once one statue topples, what then? more statues? Buildings when does it stop? No sane level headed person supports racism, but I'd argue that tearing cities down in an attempt to erase history wont change the future, for example should the Germans flatten their entire country? Will that erase Hitlers doings? No, but by having monuments act as a constant reminder for the people of Germany, a reminder of what their ancestors did and a constant reminder of the horrors they inflicted on the world, they're certainly not celebrated... Understanding history is important, because there is no better way to improve, removing it does not suddenly make the world a better place. 

 

But changes are implemented by forward thinkers, and it is that mentality we need to collectively adopt if we're to make strides towards the common goal. 

There’s certainly a lot wrong with the protest, but apparently there’s been hefty moves through legal means to remove the statue, apparently that have been ignored. If people wanted them moved to museums, as suggested then I understand that, but statues in a civic place are almost always to deify. A large, towering bronze bust of a person is going to attract admiration, outside the context of a museum no one is going to enquire that much further. If you wanted to show the threat Fascism posed to Britain during WWII, you wouldn’t go about it by putting these towering metal statues of Hitler & Mussolini next to the Cenotaph. 
 

There’s certainly other statues of historical figures that are more grey, defacing a Churchill statue for example won’t win you much goodwill, as bad a person as he could be. I firmly believe you should go through the peaceful, democratic path first, though.

[Sly]

It frustrates me that people have broken this lockdown, which is going to increase the R rate, 

 

At this point it’s basically broken. Why weren’t all of these people slapped with a fine?!? It’s un policeable. Should the military have been used, it’s 50/50.
 

People going to beaches.

People gathering outside in parks.

People protesting in mass numbers.

 

I don’t think they can impose another nationwide lockdown and ultimately these people have blood on their hands; as more people will die because of this. 
 

I feel for small business owners, zoos, pubs, travel companies, all who are currently unable to re-open due to the continued spread of this virus.
 

It’s going to have a major domino effect on the economy. Once redundancies start, or companies fall into liquidation / administration we’ll have more people requiring monetary support from the government. It’s unsustainable; we’ll be bleeding money. The lack of income will then stop other industries such as construction, when the housing market grinds to a halt. 

Is negative interest an option, forcing people to spend money? 

 

What sort of tax am I going to be paying for the next 20 years! 

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

in the new climate of recognising all our responsibilities, perhaps it might have been a different outcome ??

 

It was a year ago, as recent as that. The petition and subsequent debate led by the council. 
 

On the point of Germany.
 

Berlin has had a similar debate regards the East side. Famously the huge statue of Lenin was picked up and de-erected within a week of the wall coming down. There’s been a long debate about the original Wall and maintaining it. Also checkpoint Charlie - ironically these places have lost their meaning and become a tourist attraction above everything else. Anyone whose been the Holocaust Memorial will credit that. 
 

There’s no truly wrong or right answer but I would say Berlin has no statue of Hitler, Lenin or anyone at the forefront of historical murder. Marx and Engels remain. 

[CosbehFox]

52 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Nail, hit. Most of our influential historical characters are marred with controversy and have probably done more harm than good when you look at all of their life achievements. You can probably link most cities to slavery. London, Liverpool and Glasgow to name a few were all built using slave traders money. Every nations history is marred with wrong doings and acts of inhumanity. Once one statue topples, what then? more statues? Buildings when does it stop? No sane level headed person supports racism, but I'd argue that tearing cities down in an attempt to erase history wont change the future, for example should the Germans flatten their entire country? Will that erase Hitlers doings? No, but by having monuments act as a constant reminder for the people of Germany, a reminder of what their ancestors did and a constant reminder of the horrors they inflicted on the world, they're certainly not celebrated... Understanding history is important, because there is no better way to improve, removing it does not suddenly make the world a better place. 

 

But changes are implemented by forward thinkers, and it is that mentality we need to collectively adopt if we're to make strides towards the common goal. 

Difference is that Germany have no direct statue of Hitler or any other political leader. (There is the rather shady bunker mind). Memories galore. That nuance is quite important here - a memorial is different to a statue of celebration. 

Edited 8 June 2020 by Cardiff_Fox

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

That has actually happened but it was ignored by the local Bristol authorities at the time. 
 

There was a story regards the music venue, Colston Hall too and there were plans to rename that before Covid 19. 
 

Although you quite easily not know where to stop with Bristol’s references to the slavery trade, they are numerous street names related to it too

Great coincidence that the latest series of BBC's A House Through Times is airing at the moment. It's set at a house on Guinea Street, which is obviously a reference. Well worth a watch.

[Dahnsouff]

22 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

There’s certainly a lot wrong with the protest, but apparently there’s been hefty moves through legal means to remove the statue, apparently that have been ignored. If people wanted them moved to museums, as suggested then I understand that, but statues in a civic place are almost always to deify. A large, towering bronze bust of a person is going to attract admiration, outside the context of a museum no one is going to enquire that much further. If you wanted to show the threat Fascism posed to Britain during WWII, you wouldn’t go about it by putting these towering metal statues of Hitler & Mussolini next to the Cenotaph. 
 

There’s certainly other statues of historical figures that are more grey, defacing a Churchill statue for example won’t win you much goodwill, as bad a person as he could be. I firmly believe you should go through the peaceful, democratic path first, though.

I do see the argument, but I hope it is untrue. A statue of someone breeds curiousity not deification in my opinion. A desire to further research who this person was, what they did, not some blind adhering to unknown beliefs.

The situation with Germany and Hitler is unhelpful and not especially relevant when it comes to Colton (But more so with BLM), and I say not relevant as certainly I was not wholly familiar with him and his association with Bristol, perhaps even less so than a person outside of Leicester would be with Thomas Cook for example.

Therefore his notoriety stands up well in so much as I was inclined to better understand his history 

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

That has actually happened but it was ignored by the local Bristol authorities at the time. 
 

There was a story regards the music venue, Colston Hall too and there were plans to rename that before Covid 19. 
 

Although you quite easily not know where to stop with Bristol’s references to the slavery trade, they are numerous street names related to it too

 

4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Great coincidence that the latest series of BBC's A House Through Times is airing at the moment. It's set at a house on Guinea Street, which is obviously a reference. Well worth a watch.

My missus is from Bristol and was speaking to her about the events yesterday. There's a lot 'dedicated' to Colston. I bet several people yesterday hadn't even heard of him before the weekend to be quite honest and presumptuous. There's street names named after him and a private girls school. As @Cardiff_Fox said there's been several petitions to the council to get it changed.

There's a 'Whiteladies Road' and 'Black Boy Hill' there too. A lot of references to slavery and that era within the city. I think the Council can/should expect a lot of attention as soon as that picks up (if/when it does). 

 

I can understand the statue being pulled down but it's about educating people about the time of slavery and people within the movements to stop it happening at that time. 

[worth_the_wait]

This morning the BBC has quoted Raheem Sterling as saying "the only disease right now is the racism that we are fighting".

 

Have I gone mad, or have words in the English language suddenly changed their meaning?

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

That has actually happened but it was ignored by the local Bristol authorities at the time. 
 

There was a story regards the music venue, Colston Hall too and there were plans to rename that before Covid 19. 
 

Although you quite easily not know where to stop with Bristol’s references to the slavery trade, they are numerous street names related to it too

 

Yes, I read about that in the Prof. Kate Williams link that @Brizzle Fox posted last night.

 

I wasn't aware of that when I posted, although I do remember hearing about the campaign to rename Colston Hall a year or two ago.

 

Although democratic removal of the statue (and proper assessment of Colston in a local museum) would have been better, it strengthens the case for direct action against the statue if a democratic campaign had been frustrated.

Hopefully anyone charged with criminal damage for removing the statue will just get a token fine and/or costs - and others will cover that.

 

But I'd hope that the direct action will stop there now, though - and the idiots attacking the Churchill statue or the Cenotaph have no such justification.

[StanSP]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

Hopefully anyone charged with criminal damage for removing the statue will just get a token fine and/or costs - and others will cover that.

It was chucked in to the harbour afterwards

 

They had to roll it a fair bit before it got dumped. 

[Pliskin]

1 hour ago, Finnaldo said:

There’s certainly a lot wrong with the protest, but apparently there’s been hefty moves through legal means to remove the statue, apparently that have been ignored. If people wanted them moved to museums, as suggested then I understand that, but statues in a civic place are almost always to deify. A large, towering bronze bust of a person is going to attract admiration, outside the context of a museum no one is going to enquire that much further. If you wanted to show the threat Fascism posed to Britain during WWII, you wouldn’t go about it by putting these towering metal statues of Hitler & Mussolini next to the Cenotaph. 
 

There’s certainly other statues of historical figures that are more grey, defacing a Churchill statue for example won’t win you much goodwill, as bad a person as he could be. I firmly believe you should go through the peaceful, democratic path first, though.

Obviously not being from Bristol I don't really know the constant ongoing's but I know that it has divided opinion throughout the city. And I agree that it probably either belongs in a museum or melted into something more useful. it would appear to celebrate the issue more than remind people. Like I said earlier, I don't think anyone is overly bothered about the statue coming down, and I think most agree it probably shouldn't be up. But, when does this then become nationally accepted as a statement? When does one toppled statue become two? When does a few statues become building damaged.... The point being what if it starts a domino effect of damage to monuments spread across the UK? Like I said most of our historical pioneers have skeletons in their closet, and usually linked to slavery and acts of atrocity. So do we tear entire cities down? Berlin still have Nazi architecture like the Bundesministerium Der Finanzen standing, and statues of Prussian leaders who too committed world wide atrocities... So if this was to escalate, and more statues were toppled and buildings vandalised, when does it end? Like I said forward thinking methods and forward thinking demonstrations will be what changes the future, not attempts to erase the history, pulling a statue down is exactly that, doesn't change what happened... but understanding what they person did, why it was wrong, and educating future generations why we need to learn to learn from mistakes made even 200 years ago. To move forward, you need to look forward, and i'm sure I speak on behalf of everyone, when I say we will all stand together and move forward together to attempt to abolish any form of racism by acting out in a forward thinking way! 

Edited 8 June 2020 by Pliskin

[David Guiza]

Regardless of ones opinion on the act of taking the statue down I am astounded at the argument that statues of questionable characters are fine so long as they make people question who they are and why they're there. There is a huge difference between a display in a museum with background information and context behind it as opposed to placing them on a literal pedestal, particularly when there is next to nothing to commemorate the actual victims of the time. 

 

As for Churchill I do not condone the defacing of the statue, but I do wish we could acknowledge that people, periods in history, organisations, political parties etc can be both good and bad. To the vast majority it would appear that Churchill was either the iconic face of defeating fascism and a man who helped curtail the greatest threat to safety that we will likely ever see, or a notable racist whose actions/inaction potentially lead to the deaths of millions of people through famine. When in reality, he's both. He certainly deserves his notoriety, but we cannot simply ignore his questionable past on the basis that 'the good outweighs the bad'.

 

7 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Great coincidence that the latest series of BBC's A House Through Times is airing at the moment. It's set at a house on Guinea Street, which is obviously a reference. Well worth a watch.

First thing I thought of when I saw the news yesterday too. I happened to search out the presenter on Twitter to see if he had made any comment and found his page full of him responding to abuse he'd received, which then compelled me to deactivate for a while. 

[Pliskin]

26 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Difference is that Germany have no direct statue of Hitler or any other political leader. (There is the rather shady bunker mind). Memories galore. That nuance is quite important here - a memorial is different to a statue of celebration. 

I absolutely agree that the statue shouldn't be standing. And like I said I don't think anyone is that bothered, I'm glad it has been pulled down because it isn't acceptable to have a statue of someone who committed such atrocities against humanity. My point is what happens if it sparks more events like this throughout the country? As I said most of our influential figures are marred with controversial pasts, that have had a negative impact on humanity. So if this theme keeps up, what happens when multiple statues topple?

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

in the new climate of recognising all our responsibilities, perhaps it might have been a different outcome ??

 

Where does it stop ?  Everyone has skeletons in their cupboard  ........ I suspect you won’t have any statues anywhere in the end.  are there any statutes of roman emperors?  surely they must be up to their necks in stuff ...... 

 

being a slave trader balanced only by philanthropy on the back of that is clearly not much of a reason for a statue (They weren’t really aware of his background when they put up the statue)  but I promise you that once you start down this road it won’t be easy to stop it .....
 

 

To be fair there is a pretty big difference between "having a few skeletons in their closet" and being a lynchpin of the slave trade, something that all right minded people rightly see as an appalling period of human history.  I support education, understanding and where democratically decided, the removal of such statues to a museum where they can be placed in context,

[Finnaldo]

26 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

I do see the argument, but I hope it is untrue. A statue of someone breeds curiousity not deification in my opinion. A desire to further research who this person was, what they did, not some blind adhering to unknown beliefs.

The situation with Germany and Hitler is unhelpful and not especially relevant when it comes to Colton (But more so with BLM), and I say not relevant as certainly I was not wholly familiar with him and his association with Bristol, perhaps even less so than a person outside of Leicester would be with Thomas Cook for example.

Therefore his notoriety stands up well in so much as I was inclined to better understand his history 

 

13 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Obviously not being from Bristol I don't really know the constant ongoing's but I know that it has divided opinion throughout the city. And I agree that it probably either belongs in a museum or melted into something more useful. it would appear to celebrate the issue more than remind people. Like I said earlier, I don't think anyone is overly bothered about the statue coming down, and I think most agree it probably shouldn't be up. But, when does this then become nationally accepted as a statement? When does one toppled statue become two? When does a few statues become building damaged.... The point being what if it starts a domino effect of damage to monuments spread across the UK? Like I said most of our historical pioneers have skeletons in their closet, and usually linked to slavery and acts of atrocity. So do we tare entire cities down? Berlin still have Nazi architecture like the Bundesministerium Der Finanzen standing, and statues of Prussian leaders who too committed world wide atrocities... So if this was to escalate, and more statues were toppled and buildings vandalised, when does it end? Like I said forward thinking methods and forward thinking demonstrations will be what changes the future, not attempts to erase the history, pulling a statue down is exactly that, doesn't change what happened... but understanding what they person did, why it was wrong, and educating future generations why we need to learn to learn from mistakes made even 200 years ago. To move forward, you need to look forward, and i'm sure I speak on behalf of everyone, when I say we will all stand together and move forward together to attempt to abolish any form of racism by acting out in a forward thinking way! 

Thanks for the replies lads, @David Guizacovered everything I would mostly, I think the context of being in a museum is the important one for me. We need to be more critical of our past in my opinion, I’m very proud to be British & English, but for all we’ve given to the world there’s plenty we’ve taken as well. I’ve never been ‘guilty’ of our past but I think there’s parts that was glossed over we should account for and look at who we venerate and celebrate in public spaces.