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Wymsey

US Presidential Election 2020

By Wymsey, in General Chat

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Buce

Buce

Posted
Posted

Like it or not, a Trump self-pardon may be coming soon

 

On July 22, 2017, President Trump tweeted that he had the “complete power to pardon.” Roughly a year later, he tweeted about his “absolute right to PARDON myself.” 

Should he lose his reelection bid to Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden (Trump’s campaign is currently challenging vote counts in several states), a lame-duck Trump would be well-positioned to finally put these beliefs into action by pardoning himself before leaving office on Jan. 20, 2021.

Why might Trump need to pardon himself? The Mueller investigation (or, as Trump would put it, “the illegal Mueller Witch Hunt”) unveiled several instances of possible obstruction of justice. These allegations, along with potential tax fraud and running afoul of campaign finance laws, are federal charges that Trump has avoided because he is the sitting president. They could return once a new administration takes over.

At this point in his presidency, Trump has the most freedom he will ever enjoy to grant clemency to anyone he would like, including former campaign manager Paul Manafort, former national security adviser Michael Flynn and longtime friend and adviser Roger Stone (whose sentence was commuted, but not fully pardoned). If he pardons these associates, Trump would join three of his four most recent predecessors (excluding Obama) who abused clemency for personal reasons during their final months in office. George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush used clemency to assist political allies (six Iran-Contra defendants and “Scooter” Libby, respectively, although Libby just received a commutation from Bush). Bill Clinton favored helping out wealthy supporters and family members, among others (think Marc Rich and Roger Clinton). However, Trump’s legal vulnerabilities may encourage him to take abusing clemency a step further than Bush, Clinton or Bush. 

May Trump self-pardon? Article II of the Constitution contains broad, virtually unlimited clemency language that allows the president to forgive any federal crime. However, the Constitution is silent on the self-pardon question, and there is no example of an American president ever following through on a self-pardon attempt. The case for a self-pardon being constitutionally allowed rests heavily on the principle that the Constitution does not forbid the practice, therefore it should be permissible. Much of the case law on the president’s pardon power upholds a broad clemency power and defers largely to the president’s judgment. The arguments against a self-pardon include the view that the clemency power should be checked by other provisions of the Constitution, and that serving as a judge in one’s own case is generally not recognized by American legal standards. 

Should Trump attempt to pardon himself, a Supreme Court case suggests that such a move is akin to admitting guilt. In other words, a self-pardon would ultimately be self-defeating because it would supply the impetus needed by Congress to deploy the ultimate constitutional remedy for abuses of power: impeachment. Of course, Trump has already been impeached once. Would a Democratic House try to impeach him again if he ends up having to exit the White House early next year? Unlikely. 

Under these unique circumstances, then, impeachment would seem to be an ineffective deterrent, and therefore a self-pardon might succeed. It is unclear who, if anyone, would have the necessary legal standing required to challenge a presidential self-pardon in court. And even if a challenge was successfully brought, the ultimate decision would likely rest with the United States Supreme Court. How many of its six Republican-appointed justices (including three nominated by Trump himself) would oppose a Republican president’s self-pardon attempt? Unclear.

A less controversial alternative to a self-pardon would be for Trump and Vice President Pence to use the 25th Amendment to achieve the result they want. Trump would temporarily step down from the presidency at some point before the official end of his term, leaving Pence to take over as acting chief executive. Acting President Pence would pardon Trump, who could then become president again or resign from office. If pressed by Trump, would Pence — who may hope to run for president himself at some point — agree to such an arrangement? Unknown.

 

Assuming Trump’s legal challenges in several states fail to impact the election result, a President-elect Biden might be set to take office in 11 weeks. Before that occurs, Trump will have plenty of time to prepare clemency warrants for any federal offender he wishes. If he is desperate enough for relief from federal charges that he is willing to endure the judgment of history, he may even add his own name to that list. 

The Framers of the Constitution intended clemency to be used as an act of grace shown to an individual or for the public welfare. They endowed a broad clemency power and trusted that the president would use it responsibly. Trump may ultimately have the power to pardon himself, but that does not mean that he should do so.

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Mickyblueeyes

Mickyblueeyes

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Posted
Just now, That_Dude said:

Lol, as if. He'll be kicking and screaming until they fumigate him out of the WH.

Absolutely. You just wish for the integrity of democracy and for the example to many young people perhaps understanding their first  US election, he sees sense. 
 

The contrast in what we most probably will see here to what we saw when McCain conceded to Obama is night and day.

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peach0000

peach0000

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15 minutes ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

Does anyone know why the senate is looking to be republican but the presidency democrat? Why would you vote for different parties for each? Or is this a different ballot ?

Same ballot, I think the answer is Trump. He's too controversial for moderate republicans who some (not many) would have voted for Biden. Biden has won the key states by very small margins. It didn't take a lot of republicans to turn their backs on trump to cause the scenario you described. 

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WigstonWanderer

WigstonWanderer

Posted
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Do you have the option to vote for no-one? So you fill in the ballot but don't select any candidates?

As far as I know there is nothing stopping you from spoiling the paper, etc. Your vote is anonymous so there is no id on the ballot paper itself so you can put what you like on it. They just tick you off a list before they give you the ballot paper.

Edited by WigstonWanderer
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bovril

bovril

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Posted

I disagree when people say "Trump knows exactly what he's doing". I genuinely think he's gone insane. He is a total narcissist and tweets in the middle of the night, I have no doubt he spends hours reading what people write about him on social media. And he's had a total breakdown. 

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martyn

martyn

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43 minutes ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

Does anyone know why the senate is looking to be republican but the presidency democrat? Why would you vote for different parties for each? Or is this a different ballot ?

Think only 1/3 of the senate is up for grabs every 2 years. 

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EastAnglianFox

EastAnglianFox

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Posted

I have no dog in the fight at all before I ask this. 

 

But all those jumping at joy at Biden winning and making out its the greatest day in American history, what has he guaranteed to do for the Country? What are the policy's that he has said he would bring in to make the country better? 

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Koke

Koke

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Posted
1 minute ago, EastAnglianFox said:

I have no dog in the fight at all before I ask this. 

 

But all those jumping at joy at Biden winning and making out its the greatest day in American history, what has he guaranteed to do for the Country? What are the policy's that he has said he would bring in to make the country better? 

 

Trump is an obnoxious cvnt. That's all there is to it for us non-Americanx.

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Buce

Buce

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, EastAnglianFox said:

I have no dog in the fight at all before I ask this. 

 

But all those jumping at joy at Biden winning and making out its the greatest day in American history, what has he guaranteed to do for the Country? What are the policy's that he has said he would bring in to make the country better? 

 

Just beating Trump has already made the country better.

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That_Dude

That_Dude

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Absolutely. You just wish for the integrity of democracy and for the example to many young people perhaps understanding their first  US election, he sees sense. 
 

The contrast in what we most probably will see here to what we saw when McCain conceded to Obama is night and day.

I fully agree, but we're talking about Trump. He couldn't care less about anyone or anything but himself or his daughter. He doesn't take no for an answer and has never showed an ounce of class in his whole life.

 

I never liked McCain but he was head and shoulders above the orange turtle.

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