Under

[Phube]

7 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

Very talented but the Premier League is a different animal.
 

The guy couldn’t cut it in England

What evidence do you have for that statement?

Only played 9 games in the Prem (started 1)

 

Compared with say Perez played 25 (started 15)

 

Toatal stats for 2020/21 season:

Ünder: 19 app; 2 goals, 2 assists
Perez: 36 app; 3 goals, 1 assist

 

As stated above by another poster, I want all of our signings to do well, but find it annoying when they don’t seem to be given a proper chance (considering some of the good work he did during his brief minutes), this with the proviso that Brendan sees them all in training and has won us our first ever FA Cup so might know what he’s doing!

 

[Lambert09]

Just now, Phube said:

What evidence do you have for that statement?

Only played 9 games in the Prem (started 1)

 

Compared with say Perez played 25 (started 15)

 

Toatal stats for 2020/21 season:

Ünder: 19 app; 2 goals, 2 assists
Perez: 36 app; 3 goals, 1 assist

 

As stated above by another poster, I want all of our signings to do well, but find it annoying when they don’t seem to be given a proper chance (considering some of the good work he did during his brief minutes), this with the proviso that Brendan sees them all in training and has won us our first ever FA Cup so might know what he’s doing!

 

It never felt like he got a fair crack at it. Exploded on to the scene at Arsenal but was never really given the chance to settle into the side that other players seem to get. 

 

I couldnt comfortably tell you whether he was good enough or not, but I suppose Brendans earnt the trust. 

 

 

[st albans fox]

He seemed to struggle to stay fit. 
 

whether that was true or an excuse we won’t find out ….

[CrispinLA in Texas]

I remember it took Vardy a year to settle in, he said himself that he was dejected and ready to quit football also Caglar to over a year to settle in, we didn't give Kramaric enough time and now he doing wonders in the Bundesliga

[HankMarvin]

55 minutes ago, Jazzy_Jeff said:

Scored for Turkey 👀

And against a team rated 67th in Europe 

Imagine what he will have instore for a team of carpet fitters and ice cream men ranked 194th in the next game 

[Gazi Giray]

2 hours ago, pmcla26 said:

Very talented but the Premier League is a different animal.
 

The guy couldn’t cut it in England and that’s not because he’s a bad player, but he just doesn’t have the intensity and tactical understanding to be a starter regularly for a side like ours. It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that he’s started well for Marseille, but we saw him do it in the Europa League too.
 

He’s a player made to play on the continent. 

Definitely very accurate. As a Turk, I have to say that Turkish football  tactical fundemental is weak and does not include at specific base tactical understanding . I mean Turksh football still is looking for an idendity. The country can not set up a base specific playig style.  So it is obvious that the players have lack of this fundemantal knowledge too . Turkish football players are not very disciplined as well , they do not like to work hard in general and football here is based more physical struggle  than speed-fast passing game. And we see this lack of tactical understanding for Turkish National Team as well . This criticism have been made by the Turkish fans and media in many times but the situation has been  kept always the same. 

 

Premier leauge is being played at greyhound speed for Turkish players .  Although Cengiz's basic education and understanding seems better than Turkey's average, it was very challenging for him to go to the Premier League , as the highest level league in Europe, while he did not play regularly even in his own team in Italy. I think every football player in Turkey, whether he would be  the most talented ones , when he enters the Premier League, surprised and shocked by the speed of the game in their first year  and inevitably facing  adaptation difficulties mentally and physically. Also, if Leicester had been a more mid-level team, Cengiz might have been more tolerable, but the high competition and the fact that Leicester was at the top even in the Premier League made the situation worse for him. In addition, Cengiz wanted to prove himself to the Leicester audience psychologically, and he made wrong shots over the bar and - England football fans do not like that - and could  not play well in some game but his fitness situation was not already suitable for this challange and later than he has merely recovered to the end of the season . Now it is seen it was not right time to play in PM for him last season.

 

Edited 1 September 2021 by Gazi Giray

[JR99]

6 minutes ago, Gazi Giray said:

Definitely very accurate. As a Turk, I have to say that Turkish football  tactical fundemental is weak and has not a specific base tactical understanding . So it is obvious that our  players have lack of this fundemantal knowledge too . Turkish football players are not very disciplined, do not like to work hard in general. Turkish football is based in physical struggle much more than speed-fast game.And we see this lack of tactical understanding for Turkish National Team. 
Premier leauge is being played at greyhound speed for Turkish players.  Although Cengiz's basic education and understanding seems better than Turkey's average, it was very challenging for him to go to the Premier League , as the highest level league in Europe, while he did not play regularly even in his own team in Italy. I think every football player in Turkey, whether he would be  the most talented ones , when he enters the Premier League, surprised and shocked by the speed of the game in their first year  and inevitably facing  adaptation difficulties mentally and physically. Also, if Leicester had been a more mid-level team, Cengiz might have been more tolerable, but the high competition and the fact that Leicester was at the top even in the Premier League made the situation worse for him. In addition, Cengiz wanted to prove himself to the Leicester audience psychologically, and he made wrong shots over the bar and - England football fans do not like that - and could  not play well in some game but his fitness situation was not already suitable for this challange and later than he has merely recovered to the end of the season . Now it is seen it was not right time to play in PM for him last season.

 

Pretty fair and balanced, its not black and white that he's amazing or sh*t. He's clearly a very talented footballer to play at the levels most players, 99.9%, could only ever dream of, but fundamentally Cengiz and Leicester didn't work together for hundreds of reasons you could speculate. I wish it could've worked out as he's got that flair and maverick playstyle we haven't seen since Riyad left, and I hope he rips it up abroad, but if the manager says he isn't working, then that's that and he can either learn and develop from that or continue as he is in a more suitable environment for him 

[Gazi Giray]

1 minute ago, JR99 said:

 but if the manager says he isn't working, then that's that and he can either learn and develop from that or continue as he is in a more suitable environment for him 

No  I do not want to say for Cengiz , he  does not work hard or do not like work hard . Only the general situation of Turkish players is they do not like to work hard.. beacsue of that their adaptation can be difficult .But Cengiz should get used to work hard trainings in Italy ..I remeber he said to Turkish media after coming Italy, He had never had any double training in Turkey . But I really do not know may be England trainings is harder than Italy too because they have very fast playing. 

[JR99]

1 hour ago, Gazi Giray said:

No  I do not want to say for Cengiz , he  does not work hard or do not like work hard . Only the general situation of Turkish players is they do not like to work hard.. beacsue of that their adaptation can be difficult .But Cengiz should get used to work hard trainings in Italy ..I remeber he said to Turkish media after coming Italy, He had never had any double training in Turkey . But I really do not know may be England trainings is harder than Italy too because they have very fast playing. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting he wasn't willing to work hard - by environment and learning i mean Rodgers explanation of a lack of tactical adaptation to fit the role he was required to, as you alluded to in your original post. It was likely a different system he was put in, and if he wants to succeed everywhere he goes then adapting and learning that role will be crucial 

[volpeazzurro]

4 hours ago, pmcla26 said:

Like I said, very talented, hence the couple of goals and assists that he got.
 

Rodgers mentioned it multiple times in the press that when he featured he didnt fulfil what was expected of him off the ball and from a tactical perspective and that’s why he was left out at times. 

Yet he was still arguably better statistically than Perez? I know who I'd rather pay my money to watch. Rodgers may be right about Under but is he about Perez? After all this time it looks very doubtful. If Under was only half fit it doesn't say much about Perez. 

 

[Dan LCFC]

Never felt he got a great chance really. I am by no means saying Under was the answer because I don't think he was but I do think certain players seem to have their poorer runs tolerated more than others, and I've no idea how Perez survives as much as he does. That said, it was as bad a season as any to spend on loan abroad. Can't imagine he has fond memories of us at all.

[Tanya]

6 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

It never felt like he got a fair crack at it. Exploded on to the scene at Arsenal but was never really given the chance to settle into the side that other players seem to get. 

 

I couldnt comfortably tell you whether he was good enough or not, but I suppose Brendans earnt the trust. 

 

 

I agree. I was absolutely flummoxed he never got a sustained run in the side, he is fast, dynamic, great feet and has a decent cross on him. I figured Brendan wasn't impressed by Under in training, and perhaps thinks he doesn't work hard enough for the team. It's disappointing, but as you say, Brendan has brought us sustained success so I think he deserves our trust. 

[NasPb]

8 hours ago, Phube said:

What evidence do you have for that statement?

Only played 9 games in the Prem (started 1)

 

Compared with say Perez played 25 (started 15)

 

Toatal stats for 2020/21 season:

Ünder: 19 app; 2 goals, 2 assists
Perez: 36 app; 3 goals, 1 assist

 

As stated above by another poster, I want all of our signings to do well, but find it annoying when they don’t seem to be given a proper chance (considering some of the good work he did during his brief minutes), this with the proviso that Brendan sees them all in training and has won us our first ever FA Cup so might know what he’s doing!

 

I thjnk it was clear that after a while under wasn't made to play in the premier league, but regardless i agree that Pérez was given way too much freedom in comparison with under. This is what most annoys me about Rodgers. He's very uptight. Doesn't tinker enough and doesn't like to be wrong. Or admit it in fact. Maybe if under played a bit more instead of Pérez we're in the champions league. 

[Babylon]

4 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

Never felt he got a great chance really. I am by no means saying Under was the answer because I don't think he was but I do think certain players seem to have their poorer runs tolerated more than others, and I've no idea how Perez survives as much as he does. That said, it was as bad a season as any to spend on loan abroad. Can't imagine he has fond memories of us at all.

He started to play more and then got his injury, after that it seemed to put pay to any trust in him. Perhaps because he had a history of injuries.

[gerblod]

On 01/09/2021 at 01:36, don_danbury said:

if he can't stay fit to play PL football then that's on him. i cant imagine brendan wanting him to eat kebabs everyday 

Why kebabs?

[CosbehFox]

The fact his Leicester career ended at 19 games…..probably tell us something about what would have occurred if he played a 20th 

[gerblod]

On 01/09/2021 at 00:27, coolhandfox said:

You a Leicester fan or an Under fan?

 

Maybe Under realised he need to sort he's shit out and be fitter, who cares.

 

He's gone........ 

Wow! So it's down to choosing sides now - rather than a reasoned debate about a player's relative ability.

 

I liked his directness, general 'busyness' and his willingness to try for goal. Perhaps his fault wasn't fitness but that BR had a difference of opinion with the recruitment arm. And if Brendan don't like you then you're out in the cold.

 

I hope you don't question my allegiance. It's never been to any manager, player, owner or executive ahead of the Club itself. But that doesn't preclude an objective eye on the way the Club and squad are run. No one is perfect - not Ünder, not Rodgers, and, on balance, this is the best version of City there's ever been. But this forum exists for debate and informing. Questioning fan's loyalty as a way of winning a debate or suppressing one isn't its purpose.

[Vardinio'sCat]

8 hours ago, Gazi Giray said:

Definitely very accurate. As a Turk, I have to say that Turkish football  tactical fundemental is weak and does not include at specific base tactical understanding . I mean Turksh football still is looking for an idendity. The country can not set up a base specific playig style.  So it is obvious that the players have lack of this fundemantal knowledge too . Turkish football players are not very disciplined as well , they do not like to work hard in general and football here is based more physical struggle  than speed-fast passing game. And we see this lack of tactical understanding for Turkish National Team as well . This criticism have been made by the Turkish fans and media in many times but the situation has been  kept always the same. 

 

Premier leauge is being played at greyhound speed for Turkish players .  Although Cengiz's basic education and understanding seems better than Turkey's average, it was very challenging for him to go to the Premier League , as the highest level league in Europe, while he did not play regularly even in his own team in Italy. I think every football player in Turkey, whether he would be  the most talented ones , when he enters the Premier League, surprised and shocked by the speed of the game in their first year  and inevitably facing  adaptation difficulties mentally and physically. Also, if Leicester had been a more mid-level team, Cengiz might have been more tolerable, but the high competition and the fact that Leicester was at the top even in the Premier League made the situation worse for him. In addition, Cengiz wanted to prove himself to the Leicester audience psychologically, and he made wrong shots over the bar and - England football fans do not like that - and could  not play well in some game but his fitness situation was not already suitable for this challange and later than he has merely recovered to the end of the season . Now it is seen it was not right time to play in PM for him last season.

 

 

Excellent post, the most convincing explanation I've read of why Cengiz struggled here, and it also has a bearing on Caglar being generally excellent but a bit erratic. I think going on loan during Covid was also a factor for Under, and probably language too.

 

I would be happy to see him prosper at Marseille, he clearly has a lot of talent.

[Gazi Giray]

10 hours ago, JR99 said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting he wasn't willing to work hard - by environment and learning i mean Rodgers explanation of a lack of tactical adaptation to fit the role he was required to, as you alluded to in your original post. It was likely a different system he was put in, and if he wants to succeed everywhere he goes then adapting and learning that role will be crucial 

If you are a high-level professional player in a foreign country, you should at least learn daily expressions of the country and basic words in your profession, otherwise you would have incompatibility in your profession and in the society. You would feel yourselves alone in the foreign society and culture and would become introverted even you do not prefer this. Cengiz should have taken an intensive English program and some part of this program had to be about the English terms of football.  But I do not know if he get any English lesson. Burak, Yusuf and Zeki, the other Turkish national players who played in Lille in France, learned French, so they are quite extrovert, and adapted to the team and society. Even Yusuf at Lille received the support of a life coach both to learn the language and to find his way of his own path at his professional career. 

 

Edited 2 September 2021 by Gazi Giray

[drumbeat]

4 hours ago, gerblod said:

I liked his directness, general 'busyness' and his willingness to try for goal.

I did too but equally sometimes thought he was trying to hard to prove the wrong things. Perhaps BR wanted to see something else; to see him contribute more - work with and for the team both defensively and offensively. Whenever I saw him play, he seemed almost one track in his desire to score - to cut in and thwack it. I think that desire clouded his judgement, and was perhaps more importantly what BR didn't want to see. 

[coolhandfox]

6 hours ago, gerblod said:

Wow! So it's down to choosing sides now - rather than a reasoned debate about a player's relative ability.

 Wow, choosing a team to follow in football that will never catch on..............

 

It is a relevant question, in my opinion, with players like Under and Mahrez playing for City over the years, we have had a lot of Turkish and Algerian fans join the forum due to their passion for the national side.

 

Some have become City fans. Some are here because of their association with the player.  

 

That association can lead to bias in how you view a player.

 

6 hours ago, gerblod said:

 

Perhaps his fault wasn't fitness but that BR had a difference of opinion with the recruitment arm. And if Brendan don't like you then you're out in the cold.

But your guessing on both counts, how do you know?

 

6 hours ago, gerblod said:

I hope you don't question my allegiance. It's never been to any manager, player, owner or executive ahead of the Club itself. But that doesn't preclude an objective eye on the way the Club and squad are run. No one is perfect - not Ünder, not Rodgers, and, on balance, this is the best version of City there's ever been. But this forum exists for debate and informing. Questioning fan's loyalty as a way of winning a debate or suppressing one isn't its purpose.

Why is a question suppressing or winning a debate?

 

You are guessing again regarding my intent, unless you can read my mind.

 

 

[roblcfc84]

Didn’t think he got a fair crack last season, I saw enough to think with time he could be useful. But obviously I didn’t see him in training etc…but there’s been a few come from abroad that just didn’t seem to get enough game time to really assess them. 

[RowlattsFox]

Watched a bit of the Marseille game at the weekend and Under had very little defensive responsibility. Stayed high up the pitch in the right and it suited him. In England you have to do your tracking to get picked. Going forward he would have done better than any of our other options but rightly or wrongly his lack of defensive running meant Rodgers didn't trust him or play a way you need to get the best out of him. 

[BoyJones]

The last truly defensive full back we had was Danny Simpson. Never expected to venture over the halfway line and allowed Mahrez among others to prosper.
 

Now just about every full back can play like a winger. 

[sacreblueits442]

37 minutes ago, RowlattsFox said:

Watched a bit of the Marseille game at the weekend and Under had very little defensive responsibility. Stayed high up the pitch in the right and it suited him. In England you have to do your tracking to get picked. Going forward he would have done better than any of our other options but rightly or wrongly his lack of defensive running meant Rodgers didn't trust him or play a way you need to get the best out of him. 

....how do you think Rodgers would have coped with Mahrez....!!!