The VAR thread

[Les-TA-Jon]

The reality is, we live in a climate of a sports/tabloid media that thrives on and perpetuates a sense of "Crisis" and feeding people their daily dose of Outrage Porn. Also a sport/media and readership that is still largely dominated by luddites, gammons, dinosaurs etc who are skeptical of change and technology. The same kind of sentiment that froths at the mouth over slow energy efficient lightbulbs and bendy bananas is getting worked about VAR 'killing the game' 

 

There should be room for a bit more nuance and a measured response that's a little less hysterical. 

 

Most people still don't really understand or taken into account the clear and obvious element. For whatever reason, the PL decided to take a stance with their implementation of VAR, to try to avoid/minimise 're-refereeing' games. Hence why they are reluctant to overturn things and why they have set a threshold of 'clear and obvious' and a high one at that. The trip by Wood on Evans during Burnley's equaliser is a great example. The referee must have not seen the contact at all, and presumably during those discussions he told the VAR as much. If he had seen the contact, even if the VAR room thought it was a foul, they couldn't/wouldn't overrule it, because by virtue of seeing it the ref has made a judgement and therefore it isn't clear and obvious. But if they ask the ref, did you see this trip and he says no, it is past the threshold and they can make the call. 

 

The reality is that more decisions are being made accurately with VAR than without it (92% compare to 80%). That's a pretty significant difference. 

 

On the offside issue - the revisionism here is mind boggling to me. We've seen decades worth of goals given/disallowed for marginal offsides - but most of those are shown on MOTD, people say yep he was offside and then what? Nothing, people just shrug and get on with it. Now with VAR, all offsides involved in a goal are objectively the most accurate those decisions have ever been made. How is that a bad thing!? Yes some have been tight and been debated to death - but let's not pretend that inaccurate offsides haven't plagued the sport for decades. I'm quite happy in the knowledge that never again will Leicester concede a goal that was offside. I've seen enough of those brushed off over the years!

 

You can talk about tolerances, margin for error etc - but where do the draw the line? (pardon the pun!) And other problems with the offside debate are to do with the laws of the game, not to do with VAR. 

[Super_horns]

With so many subjective decisions in football there can be no way a VAR system used as it is can be 100% faultless .

 

Just there have been too many decisions made which have had lots of grey areas - for example had that Liverpool handball been given Klopp and the Liverpool fans would now be offside like with the Origi tackle before Man U scored the other week.
 
There was quite a lot of debate about it either way .,

 

Maybe we really did need VAR to be tested as we went along bit by bit with clear guidelines as to what decisions would be made.

 

As for not going to the screens - maybe Sky etc said they didn't want the game delayed either further by refs going over to have a look .

 

I also remember in the FA cup trials the like of Danny Rose and Alan Pardew moaning players got injured whilst the VAR was in action.

Edited 12 November 2019 by Super_horns

[Otis]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50432628

 

Football laws may need changing to help reduce VAR controversy, a Premier League club executive has told the BBC.

The league introduced VAR this season but a number of high-profile decisions have been criticised over inconsistencies and the time it takes.

However, on Thursday, top-flight clubs were told that there would be no substantive changes this season.

"Issues may only be fully resolved by greater clarity within the laws themselves," the club executive said.

The league has brought in the system to decide on goals, penalties, red cards and offside decisions.

There have been intense deliberations over offside incidents, including Liverpool forward Roberto Firmino's goal against Aston Villa on 2 November which was ruled out because his armpit was marginally in front of defender Tyrone Mings' knee.

The FA rules state that "any part of the head, body or feet" can be regarded as offside.

• VAR: How does it work in Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1?

Criticism of VAR has also included the lack of communication with fans and referees not using pitch-side monitors.

On 10 November, Manchester City were denied a penalty for a claim of handball against defender Trent Alexander-Arnold in their 3-1 defeat by Liverpool at Anfield.

The incident went to the monitors at Stockley Park but before reaching a decision, VAR had to take into account whether Alexander-Arnold had made his body unnaturally bigger, his arm was more than shoulder height and whether Bernardo Silva was in close proximity.

"All these factors contribute to a time-consuming process that is particularly irritating to fans in the stadium, yet these, in themselves are nothing to do with VAR and won't change unless the laws do," said the source, who was at the Premier League's shareholders' meeting in London on Thursday.

The Premier League has promised to improve VAR's consistency and speed and increase communication with fans.

The league will also lead a consultation with "fans and other relevant stakeholders" on the technology.

Is there a desire to scrap VAR? - analysis

While the Premier League clubs accept there can be no substantive changes this season, they are committed to improving communication, both for fans in the stadium and those watching on TV.

This may mean the implementation of 'explainers', as happens in Major League Soccer. It launched a Twitter feed to explain what was being reviewed, why and the outcome in real time.

However, there is also a feeling that those working around VAR can only do so much in searching for greater consistency.

A full review is likely to take place in the summer but BBC Sport understands there is no appetite to scrap the system completely.

[worth_the_wait]

"Somewhere in between" seems to be pretty constant at about 51-52%.

 

But good to see that "hate it" (29.5%) appears to be pulling away from "love it" (18.7%).

 

 

[Leeds Fox]

The attackers handball rule is clear cut, people might not agree with it but it works as a law.

 

The defensive handball rule is still very much subjective and open to interpretation, where VAR has no real impact on it. 

 

For what it's worth, I wouldn't say an accidental handling of the ball by a defender should be a penalty. If the shot is on target or heading directly towards an attacker in a goal-scoring position, awarding a penalty would be fair and in-line with the attacking rule. There is less interpretation as to where the ball is travelling to than in the hand-to-ball/ball-to-hand debate.  

Edited 15 November 2019 by Leeds Fox

[Guest Fktf]

1 hour ago, worth_the_wait said:

"Somewhere in between" seems to be pretty constant at about 51-52%.

 

But good to see that "hate it" (29.5%) appears to be pulling away from "love it" (18.7%).

 

 

I can agree that it is not at all good at the moment, but we really should be looking at how to make it work, rather than sacking it off. Implemented right, it will improve the game by removing errors. 

 

No one wants to see an armpit offside goal ruled out via var, but if we can get to a point where it has a neglible influence on the game, but would overrule a ref in things like the Maradona and Henry handball goals, surely it is an improvement?

[Foxes1]

[urban.spaceman]

Bit weird to complain when you've won and scored the retake regardless, but this inconsistency infuriates me. 

 

Was there encroachment for the first penalty? Yes.

 

Was there encroachment in the top of the table clash at Anfield? Also yes:

 

So why wasn't Milner's penalty re-taken at Anfield?

 

Apply the rules fairly and consistently and people probably wouldn't have a reason to complain.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Bit weird to complain when you've won and scored the retake regardless, but this inconsistency infuriates me. 

 

Was there encroachment for the first penalty? Yes.

 

Was there encroachment in the top of the table clash at Anfield? Also yes:

 

So why wasn't Milner's penalty re-taken at Anfield?

 

Apply the rules fairly and consistently and people probably wouldn't have a reason to complain.

The encroachment there doesn't affect anything whereas our rebound was scored by a player who was encroaching

[Chester Dontlie]

26 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Bit weird to complain when you've won and scored the retake regardless, but this inconsistency infuriates me. 

 

Was there encroachment for the first penalty? Yes.

 

Was there encroachment in the top of the table clash at Anfield? Also yes:

 

So why wasn't Milner's penalty re-taken at Anfield?

 

Apply the rules fairly and consistently and people probably wouldn't have a reason to complain.

These double standards are infuriating.

 

While we're at it, I also feel the overwhelming urge to repeat one of football's eternal truths - Mike Dean is a ****

[Mint23]

The Brighton keeper saved the penalty and looked to me like he wasn’t on his line, surely the save was before the rebound from Maddison

[Paninistickers]

Thought the encroachment rule was harsh on Brighton.

 

Vards missed the pen fair and square. Had Maddison missed his header, the game would've continued at 1-0. 

 

Surely the fairest outcome was a free kick to Brighton against Maddison for trying to seek an advantage?  Instead, we gets a second attempt and Brighton had done nothing wrong! 

 

 

[davieG]

1 minute ago, Paninistickers said:

Thought the encroachment rule was harsh on Brighton.

 

Vards missed the pen fair and square. Had Maddison missed his header, the game would've continued at 1-0. 

 

Surely the fairest outcome was a free kick to Brighton against Maddison for trying to seek an advantage?  Instead, we gets a second attempt and Brighton had done nothing wrong! 

 

 

Except they were encroaching as well, if they hadn’t it wouldn’t have been retaken and ruled no goal.

[Spudulike]

4 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Thought the encroachment rule was harsh on Brighton.

 

Vards missed the pen fair and square. Had Maddison missed his header, the game would've continued at 1-0. 

 

Surely the fairest outcome was a free kick to Brighton against Maddison for trying to seek an advantage?  Instead, we gets a second attempt and Brighton had done nothing wrong! 

 

 

I think that at least two Brighton players were also encroaching. VAR was correct on this occasion.

[davelcfc100]

If Maddison’s header goes wide. VAR doesn’t get involved and it stays 1-0 is that correct?

[KrefelderFox666]

2 hours ago, Spudulike said:

I think that at least two Brighton players were also encroaching. VAR was correct on this occasion.

This is where I wasn't sure on the rules. If Maddison was the only one encroaching, surely Brighton would have got a free kick. Whereas the only reason it didn't happen this time was because Brighton players also encroached.

 

Someone with the rules can confirm. VAR got it right, no complaints.

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, davelcfc100 said:

If Maddison’s header goes wide. VAR doesn’t get involved and it stays 1-0 is that correct?

Yes

 

7 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

This is where I wasn't sure on the rules. If Maddison was the only one encroaching, surely Brighton would have got a free kick. Whereas the only reason it didn't happen this time was because Brighton players also encroached.

 

Someone with the rules can confirm. VAR got it right, no complaints.

as above - yes .......

 

the encroachment only becomes relevant because the pen is missed and the rebound scored ...... 

 

I’m not 100% sure if it matters who encroaches first .... the Brighton player did so that may have helped 

[Spudulike]

Had another, non-encroaching player, scored (ie. Not Madders) then the goal would've stood. I think. 

[FireFox]

1 hour ago, davelcfc100 said:

If Maddison’s header goes wide. VAR doesn’t get involved and it stays 1-0 is that correct?

Or if just their player got to it first, regardless of if Maddison encroached. So what if they encroached, got an advantage to clear it, and none of ours encroached at all; would that be a "clear and obvious error" from the ref?  

 

I'm glad VAR did get this right, and I have been a fan of it (for us, it has made nearly every decision correct), but the potential situation above makes me doubt how good it is overall if it only makes decisions in specific situations, feeling inconsistent in when it is doing something.

[Rob1742]

I want VAR binned. 
 

It has taken the excitement out of the game and left us questioning decisions more than we did before.

 

First game of the season and Wolves had a goal disallowed by it and I thought this is going to be a farce. It went in our favour that day, but I knew in others it would go the other way.

 

For me that feeling when a goal was scored and the referee pointed towards the centre circle was a fantastic feeling. The feeling of your team scoring, it was amazing. 
 

That very best feeling in football has gone. You can’t celebrate as you have to wait for it to be looked at, that golden moment in football now no longer exists. 
 

I think there is now more controversy and analysis with regards to goals, and that golden moment has been taken away. For those reasons I think we should revert back to the old way. 
 

Yes there were errors, but now we are replacing the old errors with discussions about shin pads or laces being offside. It’s pathetic and I don’t want to lose or gain a goal by 10mm decisions. 
 

Bring back the old dodgy referee and lino. It was part of the game, and it was a talking point. But they were better talking points than a shin pad offside talking point and we would get that golden moment when a goal is scored back. 

[Spudulike]

But the dodgy ref and lino decisions consistantly favour Sky's favourite clubs. At least VAR evens it out, doesn't it?? 

[TheUltimateWinner]

More proof that it’s not the hardware but the incompetence of certain refs that aren’t fit for the job

 

It’s crazy you’ve got players that know the rules better than the people who get paid to know them in and out

[worth_the_wait]

All the arguments for or against VAR ... sometimes a picture just says it all.

 

Midway through the 2nd half at Old Trafford yesterday.

Defender Tyrone Mings scores an excellent volley, and a crucial goal to bring his team back level (in front of 73000 people).

Cue for mad celebration by the player?

No. 

He just shrugs his shoulders and jogs back to his own half and has the expression on his face that anyone could read ...

"I haven't got the slightest idea if that goal will stand or be ruled out"

 

It's not really what it's about, is it?  

[Manwell Pablo]

2 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

All the arguments for or against VAR ... sometimes a picture just says it all.

 

Midway through the 2nd half at Old Trafford yesterday.

Defender Tyrone Mings scores an excellent volley, and a crucial goal to bring his team back level (in front of 73000 people).

Cue for mad celebration by the player?

No. 

He just shrugs his shoulders and jogs back to his own half and has the expression on his face that anyone could read ...

"I haven't got the slightest idea if that goal will stand or be ruled out"

 

It's not really what it's about, is it?  

 

Depends what you view it all being about. I'm certainly viewing the fact we got three points instead of 1 as more of a positive than the fact Tyrone Mings didn't get to celebrate an equaliser against a mid table side quite as much as he would of done as a negative.

 

It's implementation in the PL, in general, has been utterly crap and even I've said I wouldn't mind getting rid of it and I'm a bid advocate of VAR because it's being mis-used every week rendering it utterly pointless but I have to say our game yesterday was one of the first games where it worked pretty much as it should for the entire game and if they can get it like that in every game all the better

[worth_the_wait]

12 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Depends what you view it all being about. I'm certainly viewing the fact we got three points instead of 1 as more of a positive than the fact Tyrone Mings didn't get to celebrate an equaliser against a mid table side quite as much as he would of done as a negative.

 

It's implementation in the PL, in general, has been utterly crap and even I've said I wouldn't mind getting rid of it and I'm a bid advocate of VAR because it's being mis-used every week rendering it utterly pointless but I have to say our game yesterday was one of the first games where it worked pretty much as it should for the entire game and if they can get it like that in every game all the better

I know what you're getting at.

 

But VAR worked both for an against us yesterday.   Assuming Vardy would've scored the penalty, that's pretty much swings and roundabouts.

 

I just think VAR was supposed to be about over-turning the big and obvious errors ... that everyone really, really hated.