Corona Virus

[murphy]

8 hours ago, Toddybad said:

Turns out the first UK death was in February.

Remember that our first case was in January and our first cobra meeting not until march.

And then we allowed football matches and Cheltenham.

And we refused to participate in EU procurement, even though there are bigger than us and so ahead in international queues. 

So, so many ridiculous errors.

Herd immunity against WHO advice for God sake. 

We've handled this appallingly badly.

And PPE shortages and the wrong PPE being available is just shameful.

I'll stop there.

 

And this is in no way shaped by your well known and often expressed political leanings is it?

 

Well Captain Hindsight, herd immunity was never the plan, we've been through that, it can be proven.  The only evidence the herd immunity mob have is a discussion on This Morning when the Prime Minister mentions it as a theory.  Despite hammering home measures, interventions and the plan to the contrary of this, every day for weeks.  There's colourful graphs and everything.  Pay attention.  Unless of course you choose to believe that the evil tories want to kill our grandmas because it suits you to do so?

 

Staged interventions were led by the science and the government's expert advisers.  Going too early can be counter-productive and cause lockdown fatigue among the population when we actually need it to have maximum impact.  If you have a problem with that, blame the experts.  You know best of course.  The government, quite rightly followed their advice, as would any other government of the day of any political leaning.

 

[Danizen]

14 hours ago, Suzie the Fox said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

masochism

/ˈmasəkɪz(ə)m/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

 

1. the tendency to derive sexual gratification from one's own pain or humiliation.

   "with things such as bondage and masochism, it's all right if you both go for it"

   • (in general use) the enjoyment of an activity that appears to be painful or tedious.

     "there's plenty to do when the weather turns moorland walks into exercises in masochism"

Well the lockdown is giving us all a bit more time for...err...'self help' so he might actually be on to something 

[The whole world smiles]

For me the government are just about doing ok. Yes there are some pretty big mistakes along the way but this is an extreme and unprecedented situation.

 

The biggest and most glaring mistakes was stopping testing except to hospitalised cases. And 10 years of cuts to the NHS leaving us with one of the worst placed health services to cope in Europe. including scrapping the nursing bursary which has resulted in a huge shortfall in nurses for a tiny saving.

 

This was of course Cameron, Osbourne and May with previous Tory governments. But most of this lot were part of those governments either as MPs or in cabinet so need to shoulder some of the blame.

[SpacedX]

14 hours ago, don_danbury said:

that's a brilliant video. also found this 

 

https://engnews24h.com/russian-government-documents-virus-is-not-naturally-formed-天然-apollo-news-network/

 

long stuff but really interesting 

Precisely the 'join the dots' junk that I was referring to yesterday. Factoid, anecdote, speculation, false equivalence and a loaded title. 

[joachim1965]

4 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

For me the government are just about doing ok. Yes there are some pretty big mistakes along the way but this is an extreme and unprecedented situation.

 

The biggest and most glaring mistakes was stopping testing except to hospitalised cases. And 10 years of cuts to the NHS leaving us with one of the worst placed health services to cope in Europe. including scrapping the nursing bursary which has resulted in a huge shortfall in nurses for a tiny saving.

 

This was of course Cameron, Osbourne and May with previous Tory governments. But most of this lot were part of those governments either as MPs or in cabinet so need to shoulder some of the blame.

Have they not re introduced the bursary,

the latest nhs adverts for nurses mentions 5k a year for training.

 

[SpacedX]

24 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

For me the government are just about doing ok. Yes there are some pretty big mistakes along the way but this is an extreme and unprecedented situation.

 

Corona virus bingo anyone?

[Izzy]

9 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Corona virus bingo anyone?

Challenging times. Stay safe.

[Finnaldo]

12 minutes ago, murphy said:

Well Captain Hindsight, herd immunity was never the plan, we've been through that, it can be proven.  The only evidence the herd immunity mob have is a discussion on This Morning when the Prime Minister mentions it as a theory.  Despite hammering home measures, interventions and the plan to the contrary of this, every day for weeks.  There's colourful graphs and everything.  Pay attention.  Unless of course you choose to believe that the evil tories want to kill our grandmas because it suits you to do so?

 

Staged interventions were led by the science and the government's expert advisers.  Going too early can be counter-productive and cause lockdown fatigue among the population when we actually need it to have maximum impact.  If you have a problem with that, blame the experts.  You know best of course.  The government, quite rightly followed their advice, as would any other government of the day of any political leaning.

 

I appreciate your point for the most part, the only thing I’ll put forwards is:

 

During the infamous This Morning interview, the general trend of the conversation is that the government were still considering what response to pursue, the herd immunity theory is explained, and then Boris says the correct response is “somewhere between” what he described as draconian measures (presumably lockdown) and herd immunity, Vallance presented it very much in a positive manner as a viable exit strategy. It was a few days afterwards the forecast of up to 250,000 deaths if herd immunity was followed, at which point it’s mention was dropped from any official government briefings or communication.  
 

In context of what was said, you can see how that has led to where we are now, but I think the issue is to describe lockdown as ‘draconian’ and herd immunity was just to ‘take in on the chin’ without any negative connotation of what that could entail misled enough of us. If you go early enough in this thread you’ll find me, Voll Blau as well as those who are natural government supporters defending the idea of herd immunity. There was definitely a consensus on here that we all thought it was to an extent part of government policy. Clarification after the death forecast corrected that. 
 

I’ve previously said the government took a u-turn, which I acknowledge was incorrect, but looking back there was enough haziness and lack of clarification on the path we were taking that the idea that Herd Immunity, to both critics and government supporters, was part of the plan. I knew a few friends who were part of the lot mobbing pubs and ‘enjoying their last night out’ and when I asked them why they’d risk it I got the same answer most times: “well if we get it now we’re immune and can just go back to work”. 
 

I know people up to this point that still swear by it. My biggest criticism at this point is that the comms were far below par and the government should have been much firmer in our path and what each step meant. Cheltenham & Champion’s League games shouldn’t have gone ahead, and if you’re gonna shut a pub, it seems counterproductive to allow people to cram in for one last night rather than putting it in place one morning. How we come out of it will be the ultimate judge however.

[Dahnsouff]

14 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Corona virus bingo anyone?

Sure, I will play

 

 

[swanlee]

1 hour ago, The whole world smiles said:

For me the government are just about doing ok. Yes there are some pretty big mistakes along the way but this is an extreme and unprecedented situation.

 

The biggest and most glaring mistakes was stopping testing except to hospitalised cases. And 10 years of cuts to the NHS leaving us with one of the worst placed health services to cope in Europe. including scrapping the nursing bursary which has resulted in a huge shortfall in nurses for a tiny saving.

 

This was of course Cameron, Osbourne and May with previous Tory governments. But most of this lot were part of those governments either as MPs or in cabinet so need to shoulder some of the blame.

Perhaps the only good thing that will come out of this. While the NHS has long been a political football kicked around by all political parties. Once this is all over, surely there will be a unified political initiative, driven by a massive public will & desire, to build a health service fit for the 21st century.

[The Horse's Mouth]

China lied people died 

[WigstonWanderer]

10 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

China lied people died 

I find the idea that the west didn’t realise that this virus was a serious problem ludicrous. It was quite clear from towards end of January that this was a real potential problem for the whole world. Western leaders spent February in denial when they could have been preparing and trying to ensure that community spread was kept under control.

Edited 3 April 2020 by WigstonWanderer

[StanSP]

 

 

[leicsmac]

33 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I find the idea that the west didn’t realise that this virus was a serious problem ludicrous. It was quite clear from towards end of January that this was a real potential problem for the whole world. Western leaders spent February in denial when they could have been preparing and trying to ensure that community spread was kept under control.

Don't let facts of the matter get in the way of a well trodden and easy to posit narrative - where's the fun in that?

[Strokes]

47 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I find the idea that the west didn’t realise that this virus was a serious problem ludicrous. It was quite clear from towards end of January that this was a real potential problem for the whole world. Western leaders spent February in denial when they could have been preparing and trying to ensure that community spread was kept under control.

The trouble was it was already here by February, @Toddybad says our first death was in feb (I’ve not seen it confirmed yet but it wouldn’t surprise me).

Whilst western leaders haven’t painted themselves in glory, the plans in all countries has been to manage this, not eradicate it, stop it or contain it. That’s on China. China are an absolute disgrace and should be made pariah’s when this is all over.

We might not have acted soon enough but China knowingly let this out of their borders and that’s unforgivable.

[don_danbury]

3 hours ago, Line-X said:

Precisely the 'join the dots' junk that I was referring to yesterday. Factoid, anecdote, speculation, false equivalence and a loaded title. 

fair enough...

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

The trouble was it was already here by February, @Toddybad says our first death was in feb (I’ve not seen it confirmed yet but it wouldn’t surprise me).

Whilst western leaders haven’t painted themselves in glory, the plans in all countries has been to manage this, not eradicate it, stop it or contain it. That’s on China. China are an absolute disgrace and should be made pariah’s when this is all over.

We might not have acted soon enough but China knowingly let this out of their borders and that’s unforgivable.

I'm genuinely curious to know opinions on why not and why would they, in that bolded order.

[The whole world smiles]

3 hours ago, joachim1965 said:

Have they not re introduced the bursary,

the latest nhs adverts for nurses mentions 5k a year for training.

 

How recent were these adverts? I know a girl in her 2nd year of studying Nursing at birmingham, who has basically been drafted in to work on the frontline of this. Not only is it unpaid but because of the lack of a bursary she is basically paying for the privilege.

 

They may have re-introduced it recently, I don't know but even if they did it will be 4 years till we see a significant increase in qualified nurses. And if they have re-introduced it, it basically shows the conservatives acknowledge what a stupid, short sighted idea it was in the first place. 

 

 

[joachim1965]

Just now, The whole world smiles said:

How recent were these adverts? I know a girl in her 2nd year of studying Nursing at birmingham, who has basically been drafted in to work on the frontline of this. Not only is it unpaid but because of the lack of a bursary she is basically paying for the privilege.

 

They may have re-introduced it recently, I don't know but even if they did it will be 4 years till we see a significant increase in qualified nurses. And if they have re-introduced it, it basically shows the conservatives acknowledge what a stupid, short sighted idea it was in the first place. 

 

 

These adverts are running on tv at the moment, but I totally agree, too little too late.

[murphy]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I find the idea that the west didn’t realise that this virus was a serious problem ludicrous. It was quite clear from towards end of January that this was a real potential problem for the whole world. Western leaders spent February in denial when they could have been preparing and trying to ensure that community spread was kept under control.

Maybe there was some early complacency because previous outbreaks like SARS and MERS never really touched the west?  Four SARS cases in the UK I believe and was successfully contained.

[StanSP]

Think there were some affected by this? 

 

Hopefully good news for you... 

[st albans fox]

29 minutes ago, Strokes said:

The trouble was it was already here by February, @Toddybad says our first death was in feb (I’ve not seen it confirmed yet but it wouldn’t surprise me).

Whilst western leaders haven’t painted themselves in glory, the plans in all countries has been to manage this, not eradicate it, stop it or contain it. That’s on China. China are an absolute disgrace and should be made pariah’s when this is all over.

We might not have acted soon enough but China knowingly let this out of their borders and that’s unforgivable.

Well the Wuhan local govt were negligent in the extreme in the early days but the national govt did not allow Chinese nationals to leave the country once they realised what was going on. Are you condemning european govts for allowing people to pass between countries through second half feb when they could see cases already appearing in their counties ???  
 

 

[The whole world smiles]

3 minutes ago, joachim1965 said:

These adverts are running on tv at the moment, but I totally agree, too little too late.

My wife is a nurse and honestly the whole profession knew at the time what a terrible idea it was and how many nurses it was going to cost the NHS. 

 

But the government ploughed on regardless, trying to save a few penny's more from an already criminally underfunded service. 

 

It's sadly a decision that will now cost the country billions. 

[Strokes]

31 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm genuinely curious to know opinions on why not and why would they, in that bolded order.

They deemed it impossible as it was already here and rife.

 

On the second point I can assume they felt it was the best option for them to keep it hidden at that time.
This began at the latest in November, to call western governments out for slow reactions and to remove China from any blame is a bit strange.

I’m not saying they released a biological weapon or that this was intentional but they knew early on and they’ve been lying ever since.

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Well the Wuhan local govt were negligent in the extreme in the early days but the national govt did not allow Chinese nationals to leave the country once they realised what was going on. Are you condemning european govts for allowing people to pass between countries through second half feb when they could see cases already appearing in their counties ???  

I’m saying the Chinese authorities were aware when things were very much business as usual.

Of course we could have all stopped international travel, or quarantined new arrivals but it was here already.