Mladen Sormaz - Head of Analytics departing

[Stadt]

2 hours ago, foxgas said:

I wonder what managers like Clough, Busby, Shankly and our own Jock Wallace would make of this pantheon of suits recruiting our players with their iPads and endless meaningless stats. They could suss a player on a wet Wednesday night in Rochdale better than this lot. Science is great but having the right attitude to go with skills, like KDH, who couldn't get near to the first team before injuries took their toll, and Justin  who seems to have balls a plenty, show the type of footballer we should be looking at rather than paying over the odds on mediocre European players who's stats are good.

ee bah gum

[StriderHiryu]

6 hours ago, Stadt said:

It was @StriderHiryu if I recall

 

 

This is why analytics has to be married up with traditional scouting (it usually is at clubs). Under Pearson, as a club we emphasised personality in recruitment to a level I've never seen since, with Soumare it looks as though we probably didn't do our due diligence on what he's like as a person well enough.

 

Yep correct. A friend of mine was part of the team that totally overhauled Arsenal's analytical scouting system over the last few years. Not every signing they made they got right, but signings like Tomiyasu, Ben White (despite the price) and Aaron Ramsdale almost got them back to the Champions League. He said that Soumare came up over and over again and that his dismal failure in the league had his own team check their data again. He said that on paper he looked like a great signing and that had they identified him sooner would also have been in for him.

 

So in some ways it's impressive that we found him before other clubs did, but it also shows you how data only gets you so far. I'd be curious as to why he didn't work out here. I imagine it was the Cengiz Under / Adrien Silva / Iborra effect where their physicality and / or stamina isn't up to par for the Premier League. Soumare may well have been playing 90 mins regularly in France, but very few teams play at Premier League pace over there.

[sacreblueits442]

17 hours ago, Countryfox said:

 

It was someone on here as i recall, who had a friend in the player analysis business, that told him all the 'algorithms' showed Soumare in a very positive light, but other clubs (seeing the same as we could see) walked away ..  he implied that sometimes you had to ignore pure stats, which they did ...  but obviously we didn't. 

...sometimes players are better with the game infront of them, than being in the centre of the pitch, where the oppositions movements are not catered for, due to an inability to read the game effectively!!!

  Pretty much players were breaking on us, and Soumare was unable to pick up that he needed to go with that player, even if it is solely to reduce the oppositions options in attack.

  Him not being up to speed with the Premier League is a part of this.

  If you were to list all the attributes of a #8 he (Soumare) would have half of them, he plays like a #8 but doesn't think like one.

  I am sure wherever he ends up, he will be a major success. We wanted a powerful #8 to bolster our midfield but brought in a #6, who is very good in his role.

[volpeazzurro]

16 hours ago, foxgas said:

I wonder what managers like Clough, Busby, Shankly and our own Jock Wallace would make of this pantheon of suits recruiting our players with their iPads and endless meaningless stats. They could suss a player on a wet Wednesday night in Rochdale better than this lot. Science is great but having the right attitude to go with skills, like KDH, who couldn't get near to the first team before injuries took their toll, and Justin  who seems to have balls a plenty, show the type of footballer we should be looking at rather than paying over the odds on mediocre European players who's stats are good.

Eeeee by eck lasse, tha don't sweat much fer a fatun!

[cropstonfox]

Good Riddance to  another BS brigade  member.

[The_77]

On 09/06/2022 at 14:58, foxgas said:

I wonder what managers like Clough, Busby, Shankly and our own Jock Wallace would make of this pantheon of suits recruiting our players with their iPads and endless meaningless stats. They could suss a player on a wet Wednesday night in Rochdale better than this lot. Science is great but having the right attitude to go with skills, like KDH, who couldn't get near to the first team before injuries took their toll, and Justin  who seems to have balls a plenty, show the type of footballer we should be looking at rather than paying over the odds on mediocre European players who's stats are good.

Not sure how many analytics guys you’ve been around but I can tell you they definitely ain’t wearing suits to the office each day. 
 

Also, you myst know we would have run heavy analytics on players like KDH and JJ too, we don’t pick and choose based on whether or not the player is English or if a scout’s grandad would’ve liked him. 

[lifted*fox]

who remembers the good old days when you just found a player and told him to kick the ball and do a goal in the football net

[Chelmofox]

29 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

who remembers the good old days when you just found a player and told him to kick the ball and do a goal in the football net

 

[Out Foxed]

mad Mlad

[coolhandfox]

On 09/06/2022 at 19:58, foxgas said:

I wonder what managers like Clough, Busby, Shankly and our own Jock Wallace would make of this pantheon of suits recruiting our players with their iPads and endless meaningless stats. They could suss a player on a wet Wednesday night in Rochdale better than this lot. Science is great but having the right attitude to go with skills, like KDH, who couldn't get near to the first team before injuries took their toll, and Justin  who seems to have balls a plenty, show the type of footballer we should be looking at rather than paying over the odds on mediocre European players who's stats are good.

 

Yep, because they just look at stats on a spreadsheet and click buy!

 

They still go and watch them play.

 

Just mean you can narrow down who you want to look at.

[Grebfromgrebland]

It feels like we have a massive problem hanging on to our scouting team. We seem to be losing 1 or 2 every season to bigger clubs. 

 

No wonder things have gone wayward purchases over the last few seasons. 

 

And now we have got someone in they going to have to stay with a rival till the transfer window closes. By that time all his knowledge that he could've bought to the table would've been acted on by Southampton while we lose staff and all that time, money and effort going to the new club without them doing the groundwork.

 

In other words I think we're pretty shafted here and it's unlikely that we'll be unearthing any hidden gems for a year or 2 unless we lose more staff in the meantime.

[jeffschlupp]

2 hours ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

It feels like we have a massive problem hanging on to our scouting team. We seem to be losing 1 or 2 every season to bigger clubs. 

 

No wonder things have gone wayward purchases over the last few seasons. 

 

And now we have got someone in they going to have to stay with a rival till the transfer window closes. By that time all his knowledge that he could've bought to the table would've been acted on by Southampton while we lose staff and all that time, money and effort going to the new club without them doing the groundwork.

 

In other words I think we're pretty shafted here and it's unlikely that we'll be unearthing any hidden gems for a year or 2 unless we lose more staff in the meantime.

The club's summer recruitment, in the absence of Martyn Glover, is being led by its Head of Technical Scouting, Callum Smithson. The club has not lost any other member of its senior scouting team this year apart from Lee Congerton, to my knowledge - the rest of the setup remains intact. Jose Fontes was replaced as Senior Scout by Viktor Bezhani last summer. It is my (slightly ITK) understanding that Sormaz's role in recruitment was rather limited in comparison to his work on player performance, so this is not the damning loss you appear to think it is in recruitment terms.

 

The club sticks to its processes, not individual people. Smithson has been here since we won the league. Trust in those processes is needed

[Kinowe Soorie]

On 09/06/2022 at 19:58, foxgas said:

I wonder what managers like Clough, Busby, Shankly and our own Jock Wallace would make of this pantheon of suits recruiting our players with their iPads and endless meaningless stats. They could suss a player on a wet Wednesday night in Rochdale better than this lot. Science is great but having the right attitude to go with skills, like KDH, who couldn't get near to the first team before injuries took their toll, and Justin  who seems to have balls a plenty, show the type of footballer we should be looking at rather than paying over the odds on mediocre European players who's stats are good.

O’Neill was pretty good at spotting players also. I do wonder if managers still go out watching/scouting for players?

[sacreblueits442]

37 minutes ago, jeffschlupp said:

The club sticks to its processes, not individual people. Smithson has been here since we won the league. Trust in those processes is needed

....what became of the staff under Pearson, prior to winning the League, that is the "team" we need to look to!!!

[ceredigion]

On 09/06/2022 at 19:58, foxgas said:

I wonder what managers like Clough, Busby, Shankly and our own Jock Wallace would make of this pantheon of suits recruiting our players with their iPads and endless meaningless stats. They could suss a player on a wet Wednesday night in Rochdale better than this lot. Science is great but having the right attitude to go with skills, like KDH, who couldn't get near to the first team before injuries took their toll, and Justin  who seems to have balls a plenty, show the type of footballer we should be looking at rather than paying over the odds on mediocre European players who's stats are good.

They don't make managers like that anymore. Shankly had been dead for 40 years but his former players still worship him today.

[Frank Large's Black Book]

Left for more money and not to another club apparently. 

 

https://www.footballinsider247.com/leicester-city-blown-out-of-water-amid-sormaz-news-expert/

[Dames]

31 minutes ago, Frank Large's Black Book said:

Left for more money and not to another club apparently. 

 

https://www.footballinsider247.com/leicester-city-blown-out-of-water-amid-sormaz-news-expert/

Not a surprise as someone with an analytical background myself I was job hunting a few years ago and quite a senior role was being advertised by the club at the time but they were offering 10-15k below the going rate. 
 

Fin Tech and Private Equity companies blow any other company out of the water in terms of salary, he’s probably ended up with at least a 25-30k uplift. Can’t blame the bloke. 

[LcFc_Smiv]

53 minutes ago, Dames said:

Not a surprise as someone with an analytical background myself I was job hunting a few years ago and quite a senior role was being advertised by the club at the time but they were offering 10-15k below the going rate. 
 

Fin Tech and Private Equity companies blow any other company out of the water in terms of salary, he’s probably ended up with at least a 25-30k uplift. Can’t blame the bloke. 

It's the same across most of football with support staff roles. I left a head of department position which required numerous qualifications, years of experience and a master's degree and went and got paid nearly 5k more annually for a NHS role. It required me to have a fitness instructor qualification and a GCSE in English and paid more for a lot less hours and the freedom to actually take annual leave.

 

Surprised data related roles aren't compensated better, it's going to be the future of sports, you'd think they'd place more value on it.

 

 

[Ric Flair]

On 12/06/2022 at 14:43, jeffschlupp said:

The club's summer recruitment, in the absence of Martyn Glover, is being led by its Head of Technical Scouting, Callum Smithson. The club has not lost any other member of its senior scouting team this year apart from Lee Congerton, to my knowledge - the rest of the setup remains intact. Jose Fontes was replaced as Senior Scout by Viktor Bezhani last summer. It is my (slightly ITK) understanding that Sormaz's role in recruitment was rather limited in comparison to his work on player performance, so this is not the damning loss you appear to think it is in recruitment terms.

 

The club sticks to its processes, not individual people. Smithson has been here since we won the league. Trust in those processes is needed

Smithson knows his onions, I'm surprised they aren't giving him the head of recruitment job full time.

[AjcW]

46 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Smithson knows his onions, I'm surprised they aren't giving him the head of recruitment job full time.

Might be the case of being too good at the job he currently does and the club don't want to lose that. Easily done! 

[Ric Flair]

2 minutes ago, AjcW said:

Might be the case of being too good at the job he currently does and the club don't want to lose that. Easily done! 

Then they risk losing him to another club giving him a promotion, like we've done with several already in recent years.

[AjcW]

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Then they risk losing him to another club giving him a promotion, like we've done with several already in recent years.

Yep! See it happen a million times in places i've worked too. 

[filbertway]

3 hours ago, Frank Large's Black Book said:

Left for more money and not to another club apparently. 

 

https://www.footballinsider247.com/leicester-city-blown-out-of-water-amid-sormaz-news-expert/

We pay Choudary around £3 million a year, but we couldn't give this bloke a fiiting pay rise? Mental

[Stadt]

I think we could easily afford to give Sormaz a payrise but I think the role at 777 could potentially double his salary and provide better conditions generally. 

 

If it was down to me I'd have had Sormaz as DoF

[Stadt]

I didn't expect much movement on this but nothing 10 weeks later isn't encouraging. Given we need to do more with fewer resources -  integrating a top analytics bod would go along way.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 30 August 2022 by Stadt
Apologies if anybody got excited thinking there was some news