Is Shakespeare the right man for the job?

[gerrytaggart]

50 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Mid = middle. So it's either 10th and nothing else, or an equal range either side of 10th.

Technically 10th and 11th as there are an even number of teams in the league (20).

 

But I am just being pedantic.

[ben_lcfc]

31 minutes ago, Unclenobhead said:

I agree. Ben, go and find something else to do pal and stop all of this tripe for your sake and for ours, get a life, get a job, get a bird, and get a grip 

 Asif I am going to take advice from Unclenobhead?

[Sly]

If I’m honest, I didn’t think he should have been given the job in the first place. 

 

However, they choose to award him his chance, which to a degree he deserved after clearing up after Claudio (who I said should have gone pre Christmas) last year. 

 

Changing Managers is a double edged sword. Chelsea have earned great success with it.

 

For me, he’s got two or three games. He’s just too inexperienced for the role in my eyes.  

 

His substitutions have been utterly bizarre. I thought we had a YTS boy from the Leicester Tigers calling the shots against Arsenal as we basically threw that game away!

 

Then swapping King for Slimani at the weekend? Or the repeated Albrighton off, Slimani on, which makes no logical sense. We can all see it, surely he can? 

 

 

Edited 12 September 2017 by Sly

[volpeazzurro]

9 minutes ago, Sly said:

If I’m honest, I didn’t think he should have been given the job in the first place. 

 

However, they choose to award him his chance, which to a degree he deserved after clearing up after Claudio (who I said should have gone pre Christmas) last year. 

 

Changing Managers is a double edged sword. Chelsea have earned great success with it.

 

For me, he’s got two or three games. He’s just too inexperienced for the role in my eyes.  

 

His substitutions have been utterly bizarre. I thought we had a YTS boy from the Leicester Tigers calling the shots against Arsenal as we basically threw that game away!

 

Then swapping King for Slimani at the weekend? Or the repeated Albrighton off, Slimani on, which makes no logical sense. We can all see it, surely he can? 

 

 

Correct.

[WigstonWanderer]

2 hours ago, Babylon said:

Except he isn't is he, more complete tosh aimed at the manager. You want Musa playing? Amartey? Tell me who is mean to be playing exactly who hasn't been injured or clearly isn't fit yet.

 

I took Jimmy's post to mean that the the club (scouting/DOF/manager) had collectively failed to use the money provided by the owners wisely in recent windows. Hence why the owners might not want to risk throwing in even more money only for it to probably be squandered.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. 

[Babylon]

7 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I took Jimmy's post to mean that the the club (scouting/DOF/manager) had collectively failed to use the money provided by the owners wisely in recent windows. Hence why the owners might not want to risk throwing in even more money only for it to probably be squandered.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. 

Whatever he meant the point is the same, they haven't thrown their own money at it since promotion and if we want more than midtable they need to. 

 

I certianly dont don't expect them to, but anyone thinking anything more than 7th at best is possible on a regular basis as without it is kidding themselves.

[4everfox]

1 hour ago, ben_lcfc said:

Start of season stats for you to mull over...

 

Shakespeare: Played 4 - Won 1 and Lost 3 (Next 6 games: Huddersfield A, Liverpool H, Bournemouth A, West Brom H , Swansea A and Everton H) 

 

Ranieri: Played 4 - Won 1 (Swansea), Drew 1 (Arsenal) and Lost 2 (Hull and Liverpool). Then we took 8 points from the next 6 games: Burnley, Man U, Southampton, Chelsea, Palace and Tottenham.

 

Verdict - No improvement so far. How many points would you expect us to have after 10 games? If it is less than 12, surely we'll have to make a change? 

 

A logical thinking football fan unlike yourself would look at the fixtures like I and most others do. 

 

Arsenal (a) loss

Brighton (h) win

Man United (h) loss

Chelsea (h) loss

Huddersfield (a) win

Liverpool (h) draw

Bournemouth (a) draw

West Brom (h) win

Swansea (a) draw

Everton (h) win

 

So 15 points, I'd be happy with that and we're so far looking well on course to pick up more points over the coming weeks. We don't play Man United every week you know. 

[ajthefox]

From what I've seen so far I'm not convinced Shakey is the man to move us forward, but I do think this season will be solid enough and we will be looking at somewhere between 7th and 10th. Nothing special, but a small improvement on last year and another step in the right direction.

[WigstonWanderer]

1 minute ago, Babylon said:

Whatever he meant the point is the same, they haven't thrown their own money at it since promotion and if we want more than midtable they need to. 

 

I dont don't expect them to, but anyone thinking anything more than 7th at best is possible on a regular basis as without it is kidding themselves.

I agree and have said so previously. However I was replying to your implication that Jimmy's post was a shot at Shakes. I don't think it was.

[matty98]

I think Shakey's biggest problem is he's trying to hard to prove himself as being the right man for the job. He just needs to keep things simple and not try to be some master tactician. If we need a goal bring on a striker or winger, if we're getting overran bring on a midfielder. Just keep it simple and he'll do well.

[Countryfox]

2 hours ago, Countryfox said:

Shakespeare knock out in the third ...  

 

Hang on hang on hang on wait a cotton pickin moment !! ..    when I posted this the thread was called 'Ranieri Vs Shakespeare' ...     now its been amalgamated it makes no sense whatsoever and makes me look like a right twerp ! .....    outrageous !  

[the fox]

Shakey and Claudio did the same thing and it always got me fuming! If your fullbacks and CM's aren't expected to offer much support going forward, in a team that relies on the wingers to create, why are you giving the wingers so much defensive duties (talking about gray and riyad). Why are they asked to trackback, get the ball upfield, create and score!

 

Honesty, this 4-4-2 is probably the most unfriendly formation for flair wingers in the world.

[Wymsey]

If things, though doubt it will, get worse - what available manager out there would be a better fit with how the team plays?

Struggling to think of any at present.

Edited 12 September 2017 by Wymeswold fox

[ARM1968]

Could and should have got something at Arsenal. Didn't get battered by Man Utd. Should have got something from Chelsea. Don't think he's doing too bad. 

[Jimmy]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I took Jimmy's post to mean that the the club (scouting/DOF/manager) had collectively failed to use the money provided by the owners wisely in recent windows. Hence why the owners might not want to risk throwing in even more money only for it to probably be squandered.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. 

Exactly this, their DoF, managers and scouts have had them go out and spend lots of money on people who simple haven't been good enough, we spent £30m on a striker who rarely starts and rarer still impresses, £10m+ on a player who spent an entire season injured and now he's fit the manager prefers 2 players from before the title win to, £16m on a striker come winger that never makes the bench.

 

oh and recently spent money on someone who would have been 4th choice keeper last season.

 

frankly the DoF and scouts should be replaced.

 

I have my doubts over Shakey but it's not regarding transfer business 

[Kasey Keller]

Think he'll be gone by Christmas 

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 hours ago, Sly said:

If I’m honest, I didn’t think he should have been given the job in the first place. 

 

However, they choose to award him his chance, which to a degree he deserved after clearing up after Claudio (who I said should have gone pre Christmas) last year. 

 

Changing Managers is a double edged sword. Chelsea have earned great success with it.

 

For me, he’s got two or three games. He’s just too inexperienced for the role in my eyes.  

 

His substitutions have been utterly bizarre. I thought we had a YTS boy from the Leicester Tigers calling the shots against Arsenal as we basically threw that game away!

 

Then swapping King for Slimani at the weekend? Or the repeated Albrighton off, Slimani on, which makes no logical sense. We can all see it, surely he can? 

 

 

Another view on the subs.

 

against Arsenal we were 3-2 up and Arsenal were leaving gaps in behind chasing the game. He brought on Kelechi to get up there with Vardy to try and nick another. We did concede due to three players not doing what they are paid for and picking up men THREE men at the far post.

 

against Chelsea we were losing the battle in the middle of the park. We were a man short. King is the only fit midfield player he could bring on. Unfortunately, Andy King seems confused as to what his role is in a three man midfield and gaps appeared between attack and midfield. For this reason, it stop any forward threat we may have had. If he had Silva or Iborra to choose from, I'm pretty sure King would not have been first off the bench. 

 

Im not saying Shakey is without criticism but it is just too early and there's just too much against him at the moment for us to make radical changes. 

 

Though the changes havent worked - they're not illogical. Especially not if you consider it with the moronic steps taken by the management a year ago.

 

A criticism I do have of him is it seems him is that his decisions are more so reactive that pro-active. The next six games and with players returning to fitness will be more of a fairer test for him.

[Dan LCFC]

20 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Another view on the subs.

 

against Arsenal we were 3-2 up and Arsenal were leaving gaps in behind chasing the game. He brought on Kelechi to get up there with Vardy to try and nick another. We did concede due to three players not doing what they are paid for and picking up men THREE men at the far post.

 

against Chelsea we were losing the battle in the middle of the park. We were a man short. King is the only fit midfield player he could bring on. Unfortunately, Andy King seems confused as to what his role is in a three man midfield and gaps appeared between attack and midfield. For this reason, it stop any forward threat we may have had. If he had Silva or Iborra to choose from, I'm pretty sure King would not have been first off the bench. 

 

Im not saying Shakey is without criticism but it is just too early and there's just too much against him at the moment for us to make radical changes. 

 

Though the changes havent worked - they're not illogical. Especially not if you consider it with the moronic steps taken by the management a year ago.

 

A criticism I do have of him is it seems him is that his decisions are more so reactive that pro-active. The next six games and with players returning to fitness will be more of a fairer test for him.

Totally agree with every word. Spot on.

 

If this was all happening with an available Iborra or Silva (both are very singificant, and neither situation can be put on him) I'd understand it a lot more.

 

People who want him out already I'm convinced are desperate for him to fail.

[EnglishOxide]

48 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

People who want him out already I'm convinced are desperate for him to fail.

 

True.

 

And I'm utterly baffled by it.

 

Here's a man that has played a significant part in us winning 3 leagues, reaching the Champions League quarter finals and avoiding relegation twice.

 

And people don't want to give him more than say 7 or 8 games? They're not real fans IMO. Show some support and stop judging the bloke on results against teams like United, Chelsea and Arsenal.

[Sly]

1 minute ago, EnglishOxide said:

 

True.

 

And I'm utterly baffled by it.

 

Here's a man that has played a significant part in us winning 3 leagues, reaching the Champions League quarter finals and avoiding relegation twice.

 

And people don't want to give him more than say 7 or 8 games? They're not real fans IMO. Show some support and stop judging the bloke on results against teams like United, Chelsea and Arsenal.

I judged him on the hiding we took against Spurs and the game we threw away at Arsenal.

 

He reminds me of Steve McClaren. Great coach, not sure he has the tactical nous, or maybe experience to undertake this job currently.

 

Now you could argue that it’s a failing of the club, as he hasn’t got to be brilliant at everything. Maybe he just needs additional support staff, which Claudio did a great job of dismantling. Without being an insider, I’ve no way of commenting on his influence on squad additions, which I’ll agree have hampered us. Injuries aside, we’ve waited to long in addressing the one dimensional, immobile defensive third of the team.

 

The tactical substitution against Arsenal, to bring on KI was brave. He was hoping to utilise the counter attack but I don’t think an experienced manager would have gone down that route. 

 

We’ve got a bits and pieces squad really. Mahrez would be better suited playing in a role where he has the freedom to come inside. Currently the lack of an overlapping fullback creating space for him hampers our creativity. Maguire aside (who is a step in the right direction), our defence is setup to deal with aerial threats, as they are too immobile to press or deal with quick pass and move on the floor. The worrying thing is that we’re struggling to deal with balls into the box / set pieces. Morgan looked like he was stuck in custard jumping against Morata. 

 

The defence hasn’t got the work horse / water carrier in front of them to stop people attacking centrally. Previously we forced people wide and allowed them to cross, this hasn’t been the case since Kante left. For me, we should have countered that with a change in formation to a three man midfield. We’ve sort of done this by utilising Shinji in the link up role, but we need someone with his work rate linking defence / midfield. Not Midfield / attack. 

[jayfox26]

I do think its very early for people to be writing Shakespeare off. We've had 3 tough games to start the season with and nobody would have expected us to get anything out of them. We beat Brighton comfortably and will probably beat most teams in the bottom half. On top of having 3 tough games hes also had key players injured  (Huth, iborra and iheanacho) and has been screwed over with selling Drinky and not getting Silva. We should have beat Arsenal but for some individual errors and we should have drawn with Chelsea but for some individual errors. We've not looked terrible in any games unlike most of the bottom half who have already had poor results like wba at Brighton and Southampton at home to watford etc. Give him time and a full squad to choose from and some easier fixtures before we write him off.

 

Also people slating him for playing 442, as much as i dont like us keep playing that, he has limited options. Cant play 3 at the back as we don't have 3 fit cbs and cant play 3 in mid as we only have 2 decent cms available. If we had silva, huth and iborra available i can see a change in formation and the way we play coming..

Edited 13 September 2017 by jayfox26

[inckley fox]

 I don't see a serious argument for replacing him unless it's the same argument by which you didn't want him in the first place, which would be unfair.

 

I understand the groans because there have been decisions which haven't worked out, especially when he's chosen to surrender the initiative in games. The team has been competitive without ever being impressive.

 

But it's early days and the guy's earned his chance. Some of you expected that he wouldn't be good enough but you can't let those expectations get in the way of making balanced judgements. It's frustrating that we've declined so much since we won the title but CS shouldn't bear the brunt. Plus, if the club has managed to sell a key player without sorting out a replacement, we'll have to go easy on him. And perhaps rethink where the blame lies if it all goes wrong.

 

That said, I certainly don't agree that we shouldn't worry about results against the big teams. I remember both Bassett in 02 and Adams in 04 talking about games against the top sides as 'bonus points', when in truth nobody ever attains a mid-table finish without picking up points from the top five at some stage.

[inckley fox]

22 minutes ago, Sly said:

I judged him on the hiding we took against Spurs and the game we threw away at Arsenal.

 

He reminds me of Steve McClaren. Great coach, not sure he has the tactical nous, or maybe experience to undertake this job currently.

 

Now you could argue that it’s a failing of the club, as he hasn’t got to be brilliant at everything. Maybe he just needs additional support staff, which Claudio did a great job of dismantling. Without being an insider, I’ve no way of commenting on his influence on squad additions, which I’ll agree have hampered us. Injuries aside, we’ve waited to long in addressing the one dimensional, immobile defensive third of the team.

 

The tactical substitution against Arsenal, to bring on KI was brave. He was hoping to utilise the counter attack but I don’t think an experienced manager would have gone down that route. 

 

We’ve got a bits and pieces squad really. Mahrez would be better suited playing in a role where he has the freedom to come inside. Currently the lack of an overlapping fullback creating space for him hampers our creativity. Maguire aside (who is a step in the right direction), our defence is setup to deal with aerial threats, as they are too immobile to press or deal with quick pass and move on the floor. The worrying thing is that we’re struggling to deal with balls into the box / set pieces. Morgan looked like he was stuck in custard jumping against Morata. 

 

The defence hasn’t got the work horse / water carrier in front of them to stop people attacking centrally. Previously we forced people wide and allowed them to cross, this hasn’t been the case since Kante left. For me, we should have countered that with a change in formation to a three man midfield. We’ve sort of done this by utilising Shinji in the link up role, but we need someone with his work rate linking defence / midfield. Not Midfield / attack. 

You could judge him positively on a whole series of games, rather than the ones where we fell apart with nothing to play for. We fell apart at some point or other under all of our great managers - I remember more than one drubbing against Arsenal, Man U, Sheffield Wednesday under O'Neill. One-off games create an accurate picture of a manager.

 

Only time will tell whether he has the tactical nous. I'm not sure most of us know what we're talking about when we bang on about tactics. Pearson was meant to be tactically terrible and Ranieri a genius, but I know of one member of our league-winning side who quite categorically insists that Ranieri was awful tactically, nobody ever knew what he wanted of them, whereas Pearson was much better. I remember an interview with NP once when he said that he laughed when he saw the formation they put on the screen at the start of games, because people had often got the system totally wrong. Tactical effectiveness is best judged through results.

 

It is a 'bits and pieces' squad. Amartey will need to step up if we're to have options at RB. New signings (Maguire excepted) are yet to establish themselves. The CM position is looking threadbare without Silva and Drinkwater, so someone will have to seize their chance. Still, if we're cobbling things together then it's not CS to blame, but rather the weight of gravity. Players were always going to want to leave and they were always going to grow old. Two of our title-winning eleven have left. Two guys in their early 30s are edging towards their mid-30s. Four guys in their late 20s are now in their 30s.

 

But if we put aside the passage of time, the blame would have to lie with the team-building of 2016 and the guys who buggered up the Silva signing.

[Col city fan]

@Dan LCFC is spot on imo. Many people are just itching for Shakey to fail and to be replaced by some 'big name' manager.

[EnglishOxide]

3 hours ago, inckley fox said:

 That said, I certainly don't agree that we shouldn't worry about results against the big teams. I remember both Bassett in 02 and Adams in 04 talking about games against the top sides as 'bonus points', when in truth nobody ever attains a mid-table finish without picking up points from the top five at some stage.

 

True.

 

But I think we should take more from performances in those games rather than results.

 

Spurs last season was an exception, but so far under Shakespeare's leadership we have at least kept it tight and been in the match against these big clubs even if the result didn't go our way. With Claudio last season we offered nothing in those games.

 

It's a bit unfair to pinpoint subs as sole turning points in matches like the Arsenal one where I think theres more of a case of laying blame at the players feet for switching off. Or simply accepting the opposition had superior players and shit happens.