Premier League Thread 2019/20

[David Guiza]

11 minutes ago, UniFox21 said:

I actually think the 4 names were poor examples to use. Gerrard worked through the Liverpool academy for a year or 2 prior to being given a punt at Rangers, who I think was more for his name and pull factor than anything. Lampard got a job through Uncle Harry, did well and for was given the Chelsea chance due to his career there. The 2 examples are far from common. Scholes for instance was given a shot at Oldham, Nevilles at Valencia (through knowing an owner) and England Women respectively. It's not as if all white players jump into high jobs. 

 

Ashley Cole for instance is a coach at Chelsea academy currently. Campbell has done well where he's been and you'd assume as he builds his rep. will be given more chances. But his rep. of being a dickhead doesn't help him out.

 

Think the biggest issue is progression through the coaching career ladders, which hopefully will begin to be sorted with more black players being given or offered coaching opportunities.

 

I think as well the rise of punditry will disuade a few from being coaches when they can make decent money chatting about football away from huge scrutiny.

I'm not disputing that Gerrard and Lampard have worked hard to get where they are, merely that their respective playing careers have given them opportunities that perhaps may not be available to other ex-pros. 

 

Campbell is a difficult one in terms of status. He hasn't got the same club legacy as Lampard at Chelsea or Gerrard at Liverpool, but there's certainly an argument to be made that other ex-pros have had to do a lot less than what he did at Macclesfield to work their way up the pyramid. Totally with you on Campbell's reputation though, the man is an arse. 

 

As I said in the previous post, I don't think anybody is disputing that Ince and co are good managers and deserve jobs based on their race alone, the issue is that clearly some BAME ex pros are being put off even trying and the issues as to why that is does need to be questioned. It's easy to say it's simply because they're not good enough or don't want to make the jump etc. 

[lestajigs]

38 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Of course not but I'd take him over Farke, Potter, Smith and Moyes.

Yes exactly. My point is merit, defo take him over harry potter, and jim smith, but moyes?? Its close

[Foxin_Mad]

3 hours ago, David Guiza said:

 

 

As I said in the previous post, I don't think anybody is disputing that Ince and co are good managers and deserve jobs based on their race alone, the issue is that clearly some BAME ex pros are being put off even trying and the issues as to why that is does need to be questioned. It's easy to say it's simply because they're not good enough or don't want to make the jump etc. 

This is the thing. When someone doesn't get a top job in any profession it's about a lot more than race or whatever, it's about suitability for the role. If a BAME individual is good enough to get the top job they will get it.

 

Likewise in real life there are plenty of successful BAME individuals, with good jobs and lifestyles because they are dam good at what they do....nothing else.

 

[HighPeakFox]

5 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

This is the thing. When someone doesn't get a top job in any profession it's about a lot more than race or whatever, it's about suitability for the role. If a BAME individual is good enough to get the top job they will get it.

 

Likewise in real life there are plenty of successful BAME individuals, with good jobs and lifestyles because they are dam good at what they do....nothing else.

 

If you truly believe that creams always rises in this way, then you are wonderfully naive.

[Foxin_Mad]

Just now, HighPeakFox said:

If you truly believe that creams always rises in this way, then you are wonderfully naive.

They dont always no. But there are plenty that do. 

[HighPeakFox]

2 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

They dont always no. But there are plenty that do. 

Ok. I am quite certain that BAME candidates will suffer bias, even if it is sub-conscious.

[Wymsey]

Think Ancelotti won't help Everton to progress further.

Over the seasons gone by, they appear to have a lot of ambition and spent a fair amount of £, but never really gained anything from it on the field.

Only rate Michael Keane and Calvert-Lewin highly in their squad; Pickford just appears to be a ticking timebomb in goal.

Edited 10 June 2020 by Wymsey

[deep blue]

7 hours ago, Fox92 said:

Chris Hughton has done relatively well wherever he's been and never says it's due to his skin colour when he gets a job or gets sack. He seems a nice bloke tbf.

I agree with that.  He always seemed pretty competent and got a particularly raw delay at Newcastle.

[UniFox21]

15 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Think Ancelotti won't help Everton to progress further.

Over the seasons gone by, they appear to have a lot of ambition and spent a fair amount of £, but never really gained anything from it on the field.

Only rate Michael Keane highly and Calvert-Lewin in their squad.

They need a manager who will actually build them a squad, but they need to give him a chance to actually build it rather than the usual sacked then respend £100+million 

Edited 10 June 2020 by UniFox21

[Foxin_Mad]

6 minutes ago, deep blue said:

I agree with that.  He always seemed pretty competent and got a particularly raw delay at Newcastle.

I think his style is quite turgid. He can get a team promoted and maybe even keep them up. I have not seen evidence he can move them to the next level. That seems to be why he doesnt last.

[Nod.E]

5 hours ago, Wymsey said:

Think Ancelotti won't help Everton to progress further.

Over the seasons gone by, they appear to have a lot of ambition and spent a fair amount of £, but never really gained anything from it on the field.

Only rate Michael Keane and Calvert-Lewin highly in their squad; Pickford just appears to be a ticking timebomb in goal.

One of the worst centre halves in the league in my book.

 

Agree on Pickford, hope he's not still considered England's number 1.

Edited 11 June 2020 by Nod.E

[Nicolo Barella]

Think you're being a bit harsh on Everton they have plenty of good to decent players. I especially like Richarlison and Holgate, Mina is solid as well.

[OntarioFox]

What's Keith Curle doing nowadays? Last I heard he was at Northampton?

 

I remember before everything was about Campbell, he was always brought up as one of the only BAME managers in the Football League? In fact IIRC there was a period after Campbell left Macclesfield that Curle was the only black manager left in the Football League? Chris Powell had been around too before then of course, but he was Pardew's assistant over in the Netherlands at the time.

 

Truth be told, he seemed to the other side of the coin, in that he had a higher profile more because he was BAME than because he was actually a good manager. Maybe someone can correct me.

Edited 11 June 2020 by OntarioFox

[Sly]

I saw Dwight Yorke has said “we’ve not seen a black manager in the Premier League”.
 

Ruud Gullit, John Tiganna & Paul Ince

He’s wrong of course but the list isn’t great. Any more that spring to mind? 

I’m surprised a club never dabbled on Frank Rijkaard.

 

[CosbehFox]

Worth mentioning a real sticking point with Lampard is that he doesn’t have the top coaching badge, the Pro License. In all the other top leagues across Europe, you must have that qualification. 

[StanSP]

56 minutes ago, Sly said:

I saw Dwight Yorke has said “we’ve not seen a black manager in the Premier League”.
 

Ruud Gullit, John Tiganna & Paul Ince

He’s wrong of course but the list isn’t great. Any more that spring to mind? 

I’m surprised a club never dabbled on Frank Rijkaard.

 

Terry Connor at Wolves. 

[BirminghamFox]

13 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Terry Connor at Wolves. 

Darren Moore WBA

[tom27111]

1 hour ago, Sly said:

I saw Dwight Yorke has said “we’ve not seen a black manager in the Premier League”.
 

Ruud Gullit, John Tiganna & Paul Ince

He’s wrong of course but the list isn’t great. Any more that spring to mind? 

I’m surprised a club never dabbled on Frank Rijkaard.

 

Nuno Espirito Santo, Chris Houghton 

 

Edit: Hayden Mullins had 2 games in charge at Watford earlier this season.

Edited 11 June 2020 by tom27111

[Aus Fox]

1 hour ago, Sly said:

I saw Dwight Yorke has said “we’ve not seen a black manager in the Premier League”.
 

Ruud Gullit, John Tiganna & Paul Ince

He’s wrong of course but the list isn’t great. Any more that spring to mind? 

I’m surprised a club never dabbled on Frank Rijkaard.

 

Terry Connor at Wolves, Darren Moore at WBA, Chris Houghton. 
The list is Not great and I can see why it gets highlighted.

Now days though we have a tough league where we search the world for the best managers, there must be at least 10 different nationalities represented within PL mangers, it’s incredibly hard to get a break - I think Sterling has massively missed the point and selected 4 players to fit his argument.

He could easily have said look at the difference between Scholes, Terry, Cole and Campbell and made the point that other than Lampard - Chelsea legend who they needed more To do with the state of the club and the transfer ban than anything. 
How many England internationals of the last 30 years have managed in the Premier League?

 

Edited 11 June 2020 by Aus Fox

[David Guiza]

19 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

Terry Connor at Wolves, Darren Moore at WBA, Chris Houghton. 
The list is Not great and I can see why it gets highlighted.

Now days though we have a tough league where we search the world for the best managers, there must be at least 10 different nationalities represented within PL mangers, it’s incredibly hard to get a break - I think Sterling has massively missed the point and selected 4 players to fit his argument.

He could easily have said look at the difference between Scholes, Terry, Cole and Campbell and made the point that other than Lampard - Chelsea legend who they needed more To do with the state of the club and the transfer ban than anything. 
How many England internationals of the last 30 years have managed in the Premier League?

 

Stuart Pearce

Paul Ince

Frank Lampard

Bryan Robson

Gareth Southgate

Alan Shearer

Tony Adams

Glenn Hoddle

Tim Sherwood

 

Hoddle, and Robson may be pushing it for the past 30 years, but that's off the top of my head. 

 

I just enjoy quizzes. 

 

[Nicolo Barella]

Darren Moore was shafted pretty hard last season in fairness he did a good job in the last few games in the PL and the majority of the first season in the Championship.

[Dan.Reynolds]

On the subject of black managers, it isn't because the colour of their skin, it just boils down to the fact, that they haven't been any good.

 

 

[casablancas]

41 minutes ago, Dan.Reynolds said:

On the subject of black managers, it isn't because the colour of their skin, it just boils down to the fact, that they haven't been any good.

 

 

I think the issue goes a little deeper than that. But we will see in the near future if what you say holds true. But don’t you find it odd that for all the Top top black players there has been in the past distant and near yet there hasn’t been any elite coaches? At least none that I can recall off the top of my head. Yes I am sure you can spend time googling it to prove me wrong. But this is the issue for a lot of people, why has this proven to be the case ? 

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Nicolo Barella said:

Darren Moore was shafted pretty hard last season in fairness he did a good job in the last few games in the PL and the majority of the first season in the Championship.

At the time he was there I read a lot of unhappy WBA fans on twitter about him and baring in mind he was a bit of a legend there as a player I don't think he was unfairly viewed by their fans. I did ask a sort of mate of mine at the time why they weren't happy with him and it was mainly down to how Graeme Jones was supposedly running the show and Moore didn't seem to have the leadership skills to pull rank. They also played some pretty naïve football at times but on the whole I think from the outside looking in the problems were a recently relegated side who went from losing most weeks to then being one of the better sides in the division below but from time to time shot themselves in the foot. When Barnes was there they also played some stunning attacking football, even if they also shipped a fair few goals.

[coolhandfox]

41 minutes ago, Dan.Reynolds said:

On the subject of black managers, it isn't because the colour of their skin, it just boils down to the fact, that they haven't been any good.

 

 

It's not about the successes or failures of individuals who have managed already, it about lack of opportunities for aspiring BAME managers and coaches.