The VAR thread

[l444ry]

3 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

I’d still scrap it

It isn’t ‘always getting things right’, it’s just moved on the debate to another level

That was handball last night. If VAR can’t pick THAT up it’s not fit for purpose

I really do see it as concrete as that

Up to a point. All offsides are right, it's just the time they take to decide things that is irritating. Handball and fouls are subjective so you'll never please 100%. VAR is ok in my opinion. It just needs tweaking and hopefully the Ref will eventually view the pictures at the half way line. All the problems are down to human interpretation, 

[womp]

3 minutes ago, l444ry said:

Up to a point. All offsides are right, it's just the time they take to decide things that is irritating. Handball and fouls are subjective so you'll never please 100%. VAR is ok in my opinion. It just needs tweaking and hopefully the Ref will eventually view the pictures at the half way line. All the problems are down to human interpretation, 

Its not just started,they've been trialling it at least a year before this year and its now 25 games in so how long do they need to tweak it.

They've tried to take out the interpretation IMO and its not working.

[st albans fox]

19 minutes ago, davieG said:

Perhaps they viewed the wrong incident because the attempt immediately before Maddison's hit the defender in the side of his waist and that was the one Sky initially showed we all thought fair enough not a penalty. it was only later on they showed the actual hand ball incident.

They reviewed the second one after the first one ....it looked to me like they spent more time on the first but they definitely did review the second one. I hadn’t realised that the first was so obvious so couldn’t work out why they were continuing to review once the second one had been replayed and had clearly not struck an arm..... it was then clear that they were at this point looking at the first incident.  Had they viewed the first incident initially then perhaps they wouldn’t have felt under pressure to continue the game and made the correct over rule call ..... all in all a shocking example of how not to use VAR 

[steveherbe]

How's VAR playing out in Germany? Believe they're into their 2nd season with it. Can anyone over there enlighten us?

[l444ry]

16 minutes ago, womp said:

Its not just started,they've been trialling it at least a year before this year and its now 25 games in so how long do they need to tweak it.

They've tried to take out the interpretation IMO and its not working.

That's what I am saying, although their is no such thing as an interpretation of a fact ie: offside.

[Legend_in_blue]

58 minutes ago, davieG said:

Perhaps they viewed the wrong incident because the attempt immediately before Maddison's hit the defender in the side of his waist and that was the one Sky initially showed we all thought fair enough not a penalty. it was only later on they showed the actual hand ball incident.

 

I wouldn't give them too much credit.  People laugh it off, but there's clearly an agenda being set.  In the so-called big games, decisions have gone against us on too many occasions.  They may well "even themselves out" over the course of the season, but it's hurting us most in the big games.

 

We shouldn't even be having this discussion.  VAR was meant to be a leveller, if anything, it's produced the opposite effect. 

[whoareyaaa]

9 hours ago, Always Next Year said:

Do they use the live broadcasting cameras for the VAR playbacks or another set of cameras.

Its funny how Sky can pick up a clear handball in seconds and some knob miles away can’t. Who was on the VAR panel Riley another useless fool.

I also recall that refs have now been told to use the touchline monitors, Well Mr Dean !!!! the second I saw it was Mike Dean in charge I knew we would not get any justice.

The guy is a complete dick.

And like someone as already said his mate Gallagher on Sky will say it was not a clear handball.

Its not VAR that’s at fault it’s the officials that are shit scared of being wrong and won’t change there minds.

Agree there is corruption in football it's not that they won't change there minds 

Edited 29 January 2020 by whoareyaaa

[TheUltimateWinner]

 

[Legend_in_blue]

They've seen it, they know it's a penalty, they've ignored it.  It's called corruption.

[Dorkingfox]

12 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

They've seen it, they know it's a penalty, they've ignored it.  It's called corruption.

Was an absolute total joke

[fuchsntf]

I am Not against VA (R),its the R Bit that is annoying.l

Too many excuses,laid down on perspective view

#The Match Ref,should be supported/encouraged from management to use side-line monitor....If still wrong ok...!!

 

#last Night against Villa,it seems they didnt look at all angles,and took wrong moment....Like cricket,all possibilities should be looked at..ffs that is Why we have/use the Technic and it should be 99% Straight toward descisions.  A arm in  the air, is always handball( until rules are changed)  No Room for 'old school/old Boys Network descisions...

 

# Red cards ,only in info exchange with Match-ref and closest official,if they say they had no clear view.!!!

# Again only Match ref,looking at either Screen or monitor,make the descision...VAR should only be there to help..!!

# Ditto for offside...

# Players,once decision made ,should See yellow or red,if seen to continually argue with officials...Twice in a match..manager,should also see yellow/red!!

# Nothing with VAR,But they could be used to Catch it,and Player find After the match...Foreign players more, seem to make gests,for  cards to be shown..!!

# All 2 stretched footed challenges ..RED,even if Not caught during match...1 foot,but sliding in with 2nd foot,that could be accidental,so should be taken into Account with After Match panel...

# for normal,Everyday foul in penalty area,No yellow or red!! Penalty should be adequate,The fouling Team have already seen the penalty awarded against them..!!

# Dangerous or reactionary foul,or just pulling-back( cheating) in penalty area..Red card..!! Also One on one when free run,towards goal...

 

Managers and players know the rules,and Cheating irks,they must be Made to Stand up..!!!

 

VAR..again is Not the problem,but the poor and Lack of obvious use of What it shows...This year the fans are more Angry on simple poor decision making,or

too long to decide,during the event....also the fear of authorities that "their"  ref is Made out to be wrong....or confirm he might be right...!!!

Hence ,sideline monitor and Match ref,must make all decisions he sees,or can be shown,if missed..!!!

 

[yorkie1999]

So, in ten years time, will we actually need referees when their job has been automated!. At the moment there’s 3 or 4 things that the officials are no longer responsible for, eventually they’ll have no responsibilities and therefore they are no longer required. 

[UniFox21]

1 hour ago, TheUltimateWinner said:

 

I know it isn't the reason we lost and we had ample of chances to score.

 

But it feels wrong knowing that a huge decision was completely ignored and hugely impacted the game. Having seen so many angles, I'm genuinely baffled by the decision. 

[AKCJ]

Firmly believe that VAR didn't look at the correct handball. They looked at the one just after that came off the defender's hip for a corner.

 

Sheer incompetence.

 

Having said that, look at Mike Dean's positioning. If he can't see that then he's simply not fit to be a referee.

[womp]

11 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Firmly believe that VAR didn't look at the correct handball. They looked at the one just after that came off the defender's hip for a corner.

 

Sheer incompetence.

 

Having said that, look at Mike Dean's positioning. If he can't see that then he's simply not fit to be a referee.

He couldnt see villa walk an extra 13 metres along the line on a throw in near the end (vardy put it out) so no surprise really.

[KrefelderFox666]

13 hours ago, steveherbe said:

How's VAR playing out in Germany? Believe they're into their 2nd season with it. Can anyone over there enlighten us?

It still has it's moments over there but it seems to be bedding in OK. Of course you still get the marginal offsides. Bayern had two versus Schalke on the weekend of which one of them was arguable. However, there isn't as much moaning in Germany as there is here. I also think that the referees look at the monitors a lot more than they do in the PL. Overall, I think it flows a lot better in Germany but of course VAR is still VAR and is not liked by the majority who like to keep football as it is.

 

So in summary, better than here but still not widely "loved".

[TheUltimateWinner]

For the record I think this is a handball (although probably a harsh call)...

 

But if you're calling that you need to call this...

 

 

And whilst we're at it, this...

 

 

Where's the ****ing consistency?!

 

Edited 30 January 2020 by TheUltimateWinner

[Wortho]

Judging by the amount of time VAR took to look at two penalty claims, they couldn't possibly have looked at both.

 

We also had one against Burnley where Ben Mee deliberately moved his arm towards the ball. 

[Arkie Bennett]

1 hour ago, TheUltimateWinner said:

For the record I think this is a handball (although probably a harsh call)...

 

But if you're calling that you need to call this...

 

 

And whilst we're at it, this...

 

 

Where's the ****ing consistency?!

 

We're consistently on the receiving end of bad decisions.

[Les-TA-Jon]

I'll repeat again - this is about the 'clear and obvious' thing. VAR isn't the problem - the high bar for the  'clear and obvious' threshold is. 

 

This means that the VAR room can both simultaneously think it's a pen, and not give it and be 'correct' in doing so. 

 

They have to see the footage, make the decision and agree that the referee made a clear and obvious mistake in the original decision, in order to overturn it. 

 

So if Mike Dean said to them "I saw it hit his arm, and thought it was ball to hand" then, even with the benefit of the replays, they struggle to overturn it. But if Dean said "I thought it hit his ribs" then they can overturn it. 

 

The real question is, if Dean gave a pen in the first instance, would VAR have overturned it? Absolutely not. So why on earth isn't it a pen!? 

 

We need to get away from this idea of overturning or not. Who cares who makes the decision? Who cares whose ego gets hurt a little along the way? Let's just get the right decision! 

[Oxfordfox83]

4 hours ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

I'll repeat again - this is about the 'clear and obvious' thing. VAR isn't the problem - the high bar for the  'clear and obvious' threshold is. 

 

This means that the VAR room can both simultaneously think it's a pen, and not give it and be 'correct' in doing so. 

 

They have to see the footage, make the decision and agree that the referee made a clear and obvious mistake in the original decision, in order to overturn it. 

 

So if Mike Dean said to them "I saw it hit his arm, and thought it was ball to hand" then, even with the benefit of the replays, they struggle to overturn it. But if Dean said "I thought it hit his ribs" then they can overturn it. 

 

The real question is, if Dean gave a pen in the first instance, would VAR have overturned it? Absolutely not. So why on earth isn't it a pen!? 

 

We need to get away from this idea of overturning or not. Who cares who makes the decision? Who cares whose ego gets hurt a little along the way? Let's just get the right decision! 

I think you’re being too kind here. Both the ref and VAR bottled the decision.

 

Clear and obvious is fine-it just means if VAR can see it clearly watching an incident once or twice then they should call it-if it gets to micrometres for offside, or needs 16 different angles to decide whether it’s a foul or a dive, then go with whatever the ref gave. Simple. 

[Les-TA-Jon]

6 minutes ago, Oxfordfox83 said:

I think you’re being too kind here. Both the ref and VAR bottled the decision.

 

Clear and obvious is fine-it just means if VAR can see it clearly watching an incident once or twice then they should call it-if it gets to micrometres for offside, or needs 16 different angles to decide whether it’s a foul or a dive, then go with whatever the ref gave. Simple. 

Thing is, do we have a clearly defined and crucially: a publicly available definition of 'clear and obvious'? 

 

So you're saying that they saw it fine, and just decided it wasn't a pen, beyond all reasonable logic? What does 'bottled the decision' actually mean in this context? 

[foxinsocks]

I think it's time to take this out of the hands of the refs.... the PL need to look at the way var , hand ball and offside in the run up to a goal etc are deal with by var in other league and learn form it.  yes... learn - it is typical of these types  that they think they know what's best.

[Les-TA-Jon]

1 hour ago, Oxfordfox83 said:

I think you’re being too kind here. Both the ref and VAR bottled the decision.

 

Clear and obvious is fine-it just means if VAR can see it clearly watching an incident once or twice then they should call it-if it gets to micrometres for offside, or needs 16 different angles to decide whether it’s a foul or a dive, then go with whatever the ref gave. Simple. 

From the VAR site: https://www.premierleague.com/news/1297352

Quote

 

The VAR philosophy in the Premier League is "minimum interference – maximum benefit".

VAR will only be used for "clear and obvious errors" or "serious missed incidents" in four match-changing situations:
– Goals
– Penalty decisions
– Direct red card incidents
– Mistaken identity

 

There will be a high bar for VAR intervention on subjective decisions to maintain the pace and intensity of Premier League matches.

 

The final decision will always be taken by the on-field referee.

 

VAR can be used to overturn a subjective decision if a "clear and obvious error" has been identified.

The referee will explain their decision to the VAR, and what they have seen.

If the evidence provided by the broadcast footage does not accord with what the referee believes they have seen, then the VAR can recommend an overturn.

 

So there we go. I think this proves my point. It's possible for the VAR room to see the replays, believe it's a pen, not overturn Dean's original decision and still be 'correct' in doing so. Because of the interplay of the high threshold for 'clear and obvious', the referee's original decision and that the onfield ref always makes the final decision. 

 

Because the pen was not given, the assumption is that Dean must have told them he saw it hit the arm. 

 

As I say, I think all of the above is a bit bonkers - the emphasis should be on making the right decision, end of. 

Edited 30 January 2020 by Les-TA-Jon

[urban fox]

20 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

I think it's time to take this out of the hands of the refs.... the PL need to look at the way var , hand ball and offside in the run up to a goal etc are deal with by var in other league and learn form it.  yes... learn - it is typical of these types  that they think they know what's best.

Have said all along that the VAR panel should be independent of the refs. A panel of experts, maybe including retired match officials and players/coaches etc. Obviously there would need to be training given but it would eliminate conspiracy theories and old boys networking etc.  All referees have to submit a match report and this should (if not already) apply to VAR officials and these reports should be made public, or at least an explanation of the rational behind decisions made. There will always be divided opinion and people unhappy that decisions have gone against their team but at least there would be clarity and also maybe a better understanding of the rules and interpretation by the watching public.

It is imperative that at the end of the season, every VAR decision is reviewed by a panel and those making the decisions called to explain why they gave what they did. Yes it is still subjective but we could then perhaps understand why Soyuncu's for example was given handball and Tuesdays not, and why Vardy's yellow for diving was upheld when he clearly had his foot trodden on yet Mane is given a pen when the side of his foot brushes Albrighton's boot. (I could cite decisions equally that have gone the other way). Until this happens the cries of fix and favouritism will not go away. VAR has to grow a pair and start overturning on-field decisions when clearly in error, rather than simply siding with the refs.