Premier League 2020/21 Thread

[kristianity77]

Like I said before in another post, I don't think its a lack of willing or drive, it's that we collectively either have every player on song, or a huge percentage of the team out of form.

 

Last season, last dozen games, literally every player was out of form yet played every game.  End result?  Crash and burn.

 

This season, again, we are playing what....half our team each game, carrying players who aren't on it.  Vardy, Maddison, Ndidi, Soyuncu, Ricardo etc.  End result.....probably going to crash and burn again.

 

Fact is, you can play the odd player who is out of form in the hope that the players around him can get him out of it, but if you've got a bad form player, passing to a bad form player, and that bad form player having a shot, what happens? 

 

Shit football, mistakes, bad shots, no one wanting the ball, no one running with the ball.  It's a horror show. 

 

It's an absolute carbon copy of last season but Brendan doesn't have the balls (or maybe the personnel) to drop these players and put in ones with points to prove or a willing do well (even if they aren't technically as good on paper)

 

In a nutshell, you cant win games with half your starting 11 badly out of form, yet we persist with it.

Edited 9 May 2021 by kristianity77

[Hammo]

40 minutes ago, StanSP said:

I don't get how we can be seemingly strong enough mentally to stay in the top 4 and then mentally weak to not finish it, despite still being there with 3 games to go.

In America they call it ‘clutch’ - that is, having the mental ability not just to cope with the increasing pressure but actually rise to the challenge and finish the job you started, Tom Brady and Tiger Woods being the ultimate practitioners. 

[The Bear]

The pressure of being on the verge of achieving something significant, and getting nervy about it, is just human nature. People respond in different ways to it. 

 

The pressure of a 90 min game that isn't going well is completely different and takes a short bout of determination collectively to do something about it, not to mention tactics and fatigue comes into the equation. 

 

I've gone from being certain you'd finish top 4, to uncertain given the run in of the respective teams. 

 

I now think West Ham will likely finish above you, and its between you and Chelsea for 4th. Which is no means certain given how much better they look under Tuchel and how fragile you seem at certain times. 

 

The hope for you is that the remaining games are tough enough on their own to not add any undue expectation to them. This should allow you to focus on each game rather than the bigger picture. Plus you've always *usually* performed well against the bigger teams. 

Edited 9 May 2021 by The Bear

[Nalis]

3 minutes ago, kristianity77 said:

Like I said before in another post, I don't think its a lack of willing or drive, it's that we collectively either have every player on song, or a huge percentage of the team out of form.

 

Last season, last dozen games, literally every player was out of form yet played every game.  End result?  Crash and burn.

 

This season, again, we are playing what....half our team each game, carrying players who aren't on it.  Vardy, Maddison, Ndidi, Soyuncu, Ricardo etc.  End result.....probably going to crash and burn again.

 

Fact is, you can play the odd player who is out of form in the hope that the players around him can get him out of it, but if you've got a bad form player, passing to a bad form player, and that bad form player having a shot, what happens? 

 

Shit football, mistakes, bad shots, no one wanting the ball, no one running with the ball.  It's a horror show. 

 

It's an absolute carbon copy of last season but Brendan doesn't have the balls (or maybe the personnel) to drop these players and put in ones with points to prove or a willing do well (even if they aren't technically as good on paper)

 

In a nutshell, you cant win games with half your starting 11 badly out of form, yet we persist with it.

The problem is who do we replace them with? I know you kind of answered that in your post but its a risky game to replace them.

 

The only way doing it is by Rodgers hammering home the message that if you dont perform you will get dropped just to keep the players in check. 

 

Even replacing Vardy is risky as I dont think Iheanacho would be as effective without Vardy alongside him.

[Shane]

26 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Can the fans who say we've got no mental resilience able to explain why we are the 2nd best team in the league for points won from losing positions? Or is that not how you measure the ability to cope with pressure?

 

 

Fair point Ric, but isn’t that just part of being a professional? It’s their job to fight back. Not many teams just roll over after going a goal down.
 

If we look at the data for points gained from a losing position: 

 

19/20: Spurs were absolutely awful in the league and the definition of mentally weak, but still gained 16 points. Arsenal with 18 points that season, also mentally weak until their new manager bounce with Arteta.
18/19: West Ham, very mentally weak at home in their new stadium, 15 points gained.

17/18: Bournemouth, 21 points gained. 

16/17: Hull City, 15 points gained. Relegated.

I wouldn’t call any of these teams mentally resilient, but they still won lots of points from losing positions.
 

It’s a tricky one because obviously the mental part of the game is undeniable, but I don’t think its the main factor for winning points from a losing position.

There’s other factors to consider: How many times have we seen a team go 1-0 up, fall into a shell, concede possession and lose. Or maybe the manager makes a bad sub (Tim Sherwood bringing on 2 strikers in our 3-2 win Vs Villa ), etc etc.

[Langston]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Can the fans who say we've got no mental resilience able to explain why we are the 2nd best team in the league for points won from losing positions? Or is that not how you measure the ability to cope with pressure?

 

 

 

Isn't this a bit of a double-edged stat in itself?

 

I'm not saying it isn't half-decent to win points from losing positions - but the stat could also imply that we go behind often (ergo there's more opportunity to claw points back), which is also a sign of mental fragility. We seem to concede first to a lot of dross.

[foxfanazer]

2 minutes ago, Langston said:

 

Isn't this a bit of a double-edged stat in itself?

 

I'm not saying it isn't half-decent to win points from losing positions - but the stat could also imply that we go behind often (ergo there's more opportunity to claw points back), which is also a sign of mental fragility. We seem to concede first to a lot of dross.

Yeah we go into games looking lethargic and without a clear plan far too often 

[dmayne7]

52 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

On a serious note, I was discussing this yesterday with my uncle, another life-long City fan.

Do we think Rodgers is particularly bothered if we don’t make the top four?

In terms of his career, he’s done more than enough with Leicester to get a move in the summer if he wants one, even if we do crash out again.

And if he doesn’t want to stay with Leicester, actually getting into the CL with us would make it harder for him to leave. 
Many football fans like @Bert seem to have this romantic notion that both our manager and the players are bothered about the plight of Leicester City. But are they really? Rodgers can move on, Maddison clearly wants out, Tielemans will move on at some point etc etc. 
There’s a massive chasm between the wants and expectations of the fans of a football club and many of its players. If we do crash and burn AGAIN this season it could be because the drive to get over the finish line isn’t there?

We’ll see whether this theory has any merit or not soon enough anyway.

It might not hurt them in the same way it would as fans but if you think they're not bothered about it then you're barking up the wrong tree. It's called professional integrity and any decent footballer will have it. Plus the more success they have as a team, the better their chances are of moving on to better clubs (Drinkwater for example). Add in the fact that we often recruit on character not just ability, and you know that these guys would care, maybe even a little too much which is why they don't have a steely resolve.

[Col city fan]

20 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

It might not hurt them in the same way it would as fans but if you think they're not bothered about it then you're barking up the wrong tree. It's called professional integrity and any decent footballer will have it. Plus the more success they have as a team, the better their chances are of moving on to better clubs (Drinkwater for example). Add in the fact that we often recruit on character not just ability, and you know that these guys would care, maybe even a little too much which is why they don't have a steely resolve.

Do you know this to be true?

And the point I’m making is do they care about Leicester City particularly?

Take Maddison.. he’ll know he can fashion a move somewhere in the summer if he wishes to. He doesn’t have to get into the CL with Leicester to do this. Same with Tielemans and I’m afraid it’s most likely the same with Rodgers 

[Dr The Singh]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Can the fans who say we've got no mental resilience able to explain why we are the 2nd best team in the league for points won from losing positions? Or is that not how you measure the ability to cope with pressure?

 

 

Good point, but we're in the 'champoinship rounds" of the season and considering what we are seeing on the pitch and the statement 'your only as good as your last game'. I can understand why our fans question BR and the players mental strength.

 

Personally, we have done things on the pitch recently that we never would have done unless there was mental pressure.  Against very bang average opposition.  The players now have to show there metal, BR needs to show his metal.

[dmayne7]

2 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Do you know this to be true?

And the point I’m making is do they care about Leicester City particularly?

Take Maddison.. he’ll know he can fashion a move somewhere in the summer if he wishes to. He doesn’t have to get into the CL with Leicester to do this. Same with Tielemans and I’m afraid it’s most likely the same with Rodgers 

Well it's not factual, so no I don't know it to be true because what we're talking about is impossible to quantify, so your point is completely moot if that's your line of questioning.

 

Any decent professional in any walk of life will still continue to work hard and care about the job they do, regardless of their feelings towards an employer. So if you listen to these guys talk, it's pretty clear that have some affinity to us as a club, even if that is limited meaning I would happily bet a lot of money that they do care about the fortunes of this club, even if that is for selfish reasons.

 

And most of these players need to prove they can do it in the CL before they get their big move. Maddison has got an image problem to correct now and having another good premier league season isn't going to sort that, it needs to be brilliant with some tangible success at the end of it. As for Rodgers, he might get a pick of bigger clubs but he's certainly not going to get a Chelsea, Man City or Man United in future if he fails to get top 4 again or win something.

 

Yes footballers don't have the same loyalties they would have done but it's naïve to think they don't care at all, at least in the case of the good ones.

[Koke]

1 hour ago, Col city fan said:

On a serious note, I was discussing this yesterday with my uncle, another life-long City fan.

Do we think Rodgers is particularly bothered if we don’t make the top four?

In terms of his career, he’s done more than enough with Leicester to get a move in the summer if he wants one, even if we do crash out again.

And if he doesn’t want to stay with Leicester, actually getting into the CL with us would make it harder for him to leave. 
Many football fans like @Bert seem to have this romantic notion that both our manager and the players are bothered about the plight of Leicester City. But are they really? Rodgers can move on, Maddison clearly wants out, Tielemans will move on at some point etc etc. 
There’s a massive chasm between the wants and expectations of the fans of a football club and many of its players. If we do crash and burn AGAIN this season it could be because the drive to get over the finish line isn’t there?

We’ll see whether this theory has any merit or not soon enough anyway.

 

I think they do care. It's an achievement. Rodgers will get it on his CV that he broke the top 4 monopoly and the players value will go up if they play Champions League. 

[davieG]

It's not so much mental strength as our attitude and general approach to the level of the opposition. The weaker teams we seem to think the game is won when step on the pitch and we're there just to entertain and the top performing teams we tend to be in awe. Obviously not all games but certainly more so as the season trundles on.

[Matt]

6 minutes ago, Koke said:

 

I think they do care. It's an achievement. Rodgers will get it on his CV that he broke the top 4 monopoly and the players value will go up if they play Champions League. 

I believe the bigger the cost of a player the more of a signing on fee they get or something like that?

 

Would a player who is seeking a move see their value going up as positive though other than inflating their ego?

Surely value going up means a move is harder.
 

Pros and cons I suppose.

 

Edited 9 May 2021 by Matt

[Dahnsouff]

1 hour ago, Col city fan said:

On a serious note, I was discussing this yesterday with my uncle, another life-long City fan.

Do we think Rodgers is particularly bothered if we don’t make the top four?

In terms of his career, he’s done more than enough with Leicester to get a move in the summer if he wants one, even if we do crash out again.

And if he doesn’t want to stay with Leicester, actually getting into the CL with us would make it harder for him to leave. 
Many football fans like @Bert seem to have this romantic notion that both our manager and the players are bothered about the plight of Leicester City. But are they really? Rodgers can move on, Maddison clearly wants out, Tielemans will move on at some point etc etc. 
There’s a massive chasm between the wants and expectations of the fans of a football club and many of its players. If we do crash and burn AGAIN this season it could be because the drive to get over the finish line isn’t there?

We’ll see whether this theory has any merit or not soon enough anyway.

Are any of them bothered? Of course. To the same degree as fans? Of course not, that’s a ridiculous thing to suggest. 

If Brendan had his pick of jobs, what would he like? Not Spurs or Arsenal I bet, Man City when Pep jacks it in? Possibly. To get the job he needs to excel, so course he is bothered, just not as much as a bunch of rabid fans.

[Hammo]

I think a lot of the mental fragility in the team is down to the lack of a strong on-pitch leader - or leaders - who the younger players can look to, learn from and rally around when things are not running smoothly.

 

Evans is the closest we have to that player, and look what happened when he had to drop out at the eleventh hour against Newcastle.
 

Vardy, with his experience, passion and reputation as an extrovert, should be the man but his form has been so wretched for so long that he appears to have gone into a shell and is lucky even to be in the team.

[Beachyboy]

There is something in all sports about being the chaser, where the pressure seems less, even seen when we were 4-0 down to get it back to 4-2. West Ham seem so relaxed and happy, the expectations are less, an they are enjoying there football, with Liverpool also looked a bit of a lost cause now there is hope for them. Professional footballers and coaches train all there lives for these opportunities, if we can get excited and embrace this challenge, we are likely to see a good result, if we are anxious and looking over our shoulder it will only end badly, lets use this forum to channel as much positive energy, as is possible, we all want the team to do well, an I don't buy this argument the players don't care, you finish where you deserve after 38 games. 

[turlo]

Win for Man Utd (so they rotate against us) and at least a draw for Everton are the order of the day.  

[trabuch]

5 minutes ago, Hammo said:

I think a lot of the mental fragility in the team is down to the lack of a strong on-pitch leader - or leaders - who the younger players can look to, learn from and rally around when things are not running smoothly.

 

Evans is the closest we have to that player, and look what happened when he had to drop out at the eleventh hour against Newcastle.
 

Vardy, with his experience, passion and reputation as an extrovert, should be the man but his form has been so wretched for so long that he appears to have gone into a shell and is lucky even to be in the team.

I don't rate Kasper as a leader either. He seems to be all mouth and no trousers. Evans should be captain.

[Dahnsouff]

4 minutes ago, trabuch said:

I don't rate Kasper as a leader either. He seems to be all mouth and no trousers. Evans should be captain.

Agree on Kasper, but I don’t think we have the requisite person in the squad currently. Evans is vocal, and essential to organising the defence, but not further forward. 

Edited 9 May 2021 by Dahnsouff

[filbertway]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Can the fans who say we've got no mental resilience able to explain why we are the 2nd best team in the league for points won from losing positions? Or is that not how you measure the ability to cope with pressure?

I suppose chasing and leading are different of pressures

 

The best example of that was probably Utd where we came back from behind twice relatively quickly.

 

Generally the other times have been as a result of a tactical change or the other team imploding.

 

For me it's the mindset of the gaffer, the players themselves Inhave no doubt are capable and strong enough

[Beachyboy]

Is there room for Wes Morgan to come back for a couple games in a 3 if hes fit and Evans isn't to be that Leader? The team looks like its crying out for leadership. We need someone with a voice in that backline. 

[Wymsey]

The BBC are hardly showing an important game in Wolves v Brighton.

[Col city fan]

34 minutes ago, Hammo said:

I think a lot of the mental fragility in the team is down to the lack of a strong on-pitch leader - or leaders - who the younger players can look to, learn from and rally around when things are not running smoothly.

 

Evans is the closest we have to that player, and look what happened when he had to drop out at the eleventh hour against Newcastle.
 

Vardy, with his experience, passion and reputation as an extrovert, should be the man but his form has been so wretched for so long that he appears to have gone into a shell and is lucky even to be in the team.

Yes we’ve discussed this before.

This team is a very skilful side (Maddison, Youri, Perez) but it definitely has a soft underbelly to it. If Wilf is injured or off form we just lose the midfield. Mendy is ok, but nothing more, forget Hamza.... and that’s about it

I think the biggest miss is Harvey Barnes. His strength and raw pace are severely lacking in a team that finds it difficult to break down teams who sit and play on the counter. 

[Super_horns]

52 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

The BBC are hardly showing an important game in Wolves v Brighton.

Like for most of their games they probably got the 10th pick .

 

Wolves behind again early on .