The summer rebuild/refresh

[honeybradger]

5 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

Theoretically you can always get better but what you can't get is quality Cheap. 

I think people on here confuse "better" with "new". They see that a player is being successful elsewhere and they imagine him having that success here without seeing the flaws of the player or how the player is thriving in a particular setup that wont be replicated here, it's classic shiny toy syndrome and it's why Daka has gone from a "dream signing" to having major question marks over his ability in less than a season. I see it now with De ketalaere, people clamouring for him here cos he's this summer's hot thing but personally i just dont think he has the correct playstyle for us, he seems like a more talented Perez.

Edited 6 May 2022 by honeybradger

[Blue-fox]

I think the out list will probably be:

 

soyunco

vestergaard

mendy

perez

lookman(only on loan so contract expires anyway)

youri

hamza

 

 

 

The ones who might leave if offers come in from bigger clubs but want to keep them ideally:

 

maddison 

fofana 

castange

[honeybradger]

14 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

In 5 season he's had one purple patch of 6 months. 

 

He's all round game is no were near the levels of DCL or TA.

 

Good finisher, who lacks mobility, and tactical awareness, which is why he can't play as a lone front man.

 

He has a 25 goals and 16 assists in 5200 minutes for us, that's a goal contribution every 126 minutes for us, better than Vardy's which is 127 minutes per goal contribution. Also DCL has no "all round game" he's very one dimensional whereas iheanacho can pass, hold up the ball, beat a press and has good positioning to score goals.

 

Edit: also who's TA

Edited 6 May 2022 by honeybradger

[Dusty]

I do find it interesting that the first time rodgers brought up a “summer overhaul” I thought he was being a bit dramatic. But you have to say now that based on the last few months, that there are lots of players that are really underperforming and maybe he saw this coming. 
 

It’s a shame but I think there are only a few players that I would class as untouchable. Madders, KDH, Fofana, Vardy plus a few more, but so many are putting in average or poor performances every week. We rotate the full backs every game and they seem to be in competition to see who can be the worst. 
 

The central midfield has gone stale apart from KDH. Youri clearly doesn’t want to be here, Mendy is average at best, Soumare seems lost, ndidi injured although has declined anyway. The recruitment in this area has been poor when you consider weve signed Soumare and Praet in the last few seasons and neither have looked good. We were crying out for a cm off the bench in the last few games, bud we’ve not got good enough options.
 

The wingers seem an issue too. Do we have any good wingers? Barnes is woeful atm and lookman is wildly inconsistent. Albrighton and Perez are bit part players and we wouldn’t want them starting every week either. 
 

This season has been a failure on lots of fronts. So many injuries, the medical team and Rodgers have to take some blame for that where luck wasn’t involved e.g fofana. The recruitment in the last 3 years has lead us to a point now where we are lacking quality players, the recruitment team has to take the fall for that. Rodgers hasn’t been good enough either, failure to address set pieces (although I’d say the recruitment team have failed in signing many tall players which doesn’t help), loads of out of form players, tactics haven’t always worked but I don’t think that’s always his fault and often down to execution from the players. Which is my final point, so few players have been impressive this year. There’s only 4/5 I can think of that will actually be pleased with how they’ve performed. Do they want to be here? Are they good enough? Lots of questions.

 

Lots needs to change at the club imo. Seems too big a job for one window. And I’d be surprised if we can make enough money from sales to fix the problems with players.

[Vestan Pance]

A huge part of our long term game plan is to develop players and eventually sell them on, then reinvest. We've done that so successfully over the past few years.

 

I think Brendan will now be under the microscope from the powers that be looking at why the type of player he wants and signs rarely turn out to be a good investment. 

 

I'd say that Fofana is the only player worth equal to or more than we paid.

 

I honestly think 'BR the great developer of players' is a myth, which is worrying considering this is our only way forward.

[Jakemoore]

I think Syoncu will go. I think Brendan has had enough of him and his lack of heart. That 50/50 he bottled away at Spurs on Sunday will have been the final straw I reckon. The fact that BR brought on Amartey last night ahead of Syoncu pretty much confirms to me that he’s gone. 
 

Tilemans is a club legend for that Fa Cup goal alone and he is genuinely one of the best players I have ever seen wear the shirt. He’s also one of the worst when he’s off it. I think we should cut our losses with him and move him on. 
 

Others who can go but without a heavy heart in my opinion include - 

Vestergaard, Bertrand, Perez, Hamza, Thomas (loan) 
 

I personally like Mendy but I also think he will move on. 
 

If BR is true to his word about physicality being a problem then I want to see us signing players like Soumare in terms of their size. I think we’ve been linked with that PSV midfielder who looked very good against us. 

[Spudulike]

It's all very well coming up with lists of players the club should rid themselves of but where will they go? Who would offer better contracts to the likes of Vestergaard, Bertrand, Perez and Co that is better than they already have here? It won't be easy to move any players out. 

[murphy]

18 minutes ago, Jakemoore said:

I think Syoncu will go. I think Brendan has had enough of him and his lack of heart. That 50/50 he bottled away at Spurs on Sunday will have been the final straw I reckon. The fact that BR brought on Amartey last night ahead of Syoncu pretty much confirms to me that he’s gone. 
 

Tilemans is a club legend for that Fa Cup goal alone and he is genuinely one of the best players I have ever seen wear the shirt. He’s also one of the worst when he’s off it. I think we should cut our losses with him and move him on. 
 

Others who can go but without a heavy heart in my opinion include - 

Vestergaard, Bertrand, Perez, Hamza, Thomas (loan) 
 

I personally like Mendy but I also think he will move on. 
 

If BR is true to his word about physicality being a problem then I want to see us signing players like Soumare in terms of their size. I think we’ve been linked with that PSV midfielder who looked very good against us. 

I agree with you that Soyuncu has been poor.  Really disappointing this season, however, just on the 50/50 Spurs thing, I think we might be being unfair to say that he bottled it.  He was slaughtered for it on motd and for rolling around on the floor in mock injury (which is less forgivable), but I see it that Cags was trying to pinch the ball and thus retain possession rather than to fly into the tackle which he probably would have won but the ball could have gone anywhere. 

 

Evidently he made the wrong choice but to say that he bottled it seems unfair to me and one of the worst things that you could accuse a centre half of.

[lcfc278]

Apparently Amartey is out of contract this summer - could potentially be one we'll let go of. He's been a good utility man this season and has come in when required but is he worth another contract? I'm not so sure.

 

Lookman; he's only 24 and has put in some good performances this season, but then probably for the same amount of games he's also gone missing - needs to beef up. I think for £15m it might not be a bad signing but I'd also want us to go and buy someone else for that position as well, that would most likely mean Lookman would be on the bench most of next season so maybe not and we just put the £15m towards someone better..

 

A lot of players out of contract in 2023, including a lot of the players I'd like to see us clear out e.g. Perez, Bertrand, Mendy, Choudhury plus Soyuncu, Kasper and Tielemans who all seem to have their heads leading elsewhere.

 

 

[AKCJ]

Goalkeepers

Kasper - I wouldn't stand in his way if he wants to go and play European football but I wouldn't be wanting him to leave.

Ward - I don't think he's proven to be good enough. If Kasper leaves then he's certainly not good enough to start for us.

Jakupovic - Am I right in saying he's retiring?

 

Stolarczyk - Will probably go back out on loan.

Iversen - Probably ready to become 2nd choice.

 

I'd keep Kasper and Iversen but replace Jakupovic this summer. I'd look to sell Ward, we could potentially raise a few million quid. If Kasper leaves then I think we should focus on a more modern goalkeeper to replace him. I'm not sure Pope would be the right choice.

 

Full backs / Wing backs

Justin - Absolute must-keep. I'm sure he'll be back to his best following a proper pre-season.

Ricardo - I'd keep him unless a proper offer comes in. He's 28 now though so he probably has value if we were to sell.

Castagne - I think he should stay. I like him and I think his versatility is underappreciated. Proper grafter too.

Thomas - I'm not sure I agree when people say he should go on loan. I think this quartet of fullbacks works well.

Bertrand - Give him away.

 

I think we'd need to replace Bertrand, especially if one of Ricardo/Castagne leaves. Ideally they'd be an out and out left back.

 

Centre halves

Amartey - I think he's serviceable as a utility player. The sort of lad we can play in League/FA Cups. I wouldn't sell unless a good offer comes in.

Fofana - Obviously keep.

Evans - Keep but I would look to replace him as a starter.

Soyuncu - Sell. Look to get a good amount of money and see it as good profit. I think he'll flourish abroad in somewhere like Spain though.

Vestergaard - Give him away.

 

We need to sign 2 centre backs for definite. James Tarkowski just seems like a no brainer to me. We've been after him for years and he's on a free. Quite convinced he'll be like the Evans signing. I think we need someone who is ultra aggressive too.

 

Centre midfield

Tielemans - Either get him tied up or sell him. Has to happen early doors either way though. We can't afford to come back for pre-season and have him still here if he's not signed a new contract.

KDH - Obviously keep.

Mendy - I'd keep him. I think he's been good recently without setting the world alight.

Choudhury - I think he should go for his own sake.

Ndidi - Obviously keep.

Maddison - Obviously keep - unless someone goes mental and offers something stupid.

Soumare - I wouldn't rush to sell him but if anyone offers near what we paid then I think we cut our losses.

 

Wingers

Lookman - I'd sign him for the reported £15m. I think he and Barnes alternating on the left is good competition.

Barnes - Obviously keep - unless someone goes mental and offers something stupid.

Perez - Wouldn't be so quick to dump him but anything over 8m and he goes IMO.

Albrighton - Good to have around but ideally he doesn't play as much as he has had to recently.

 

It's imperative that we sign a first class right winger. Has to be the number 1 priority for the club to sign someone that can score goals and assist them from the wing. We've not had that since Mahrez. Ideally we sign two wingers.

 

Strikers

Vardy - Obviously keep.

Iheanacho - Sell. Look to get a good amount of money and see it as good profit. I think he'll flourish abroad in somewhere like Italy though.

Daka - Keep. I think he's a good player and will prove a success here.

 

I think we need to sign a striker if Iheanacho does go and I think he has to offer something different because Vardy and Daka are very similar. 

 

Overall

This summer is massive. We still have a lot of talent and with the right additions I think we'll be fine. Quite easy to cock it up though.

[CosbehFox]

Two shitty away kits = shitty season. Should not have been playing in Mint at the Olimpico 

[wardyfox86]

Definitely keep:

Maddison

Vardy

Barnes

2 of Ricardo/Justin/Castagne

KDH

Fofana

Evans

 

The rest should be under consideration, including Brendan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RowlattsFox]

For me I'd either actively looking to sell or willing to accept bids for: 

 

Vestergaard 

Bertrand 

Perez 

Tielemans 

Soyuncu

Castagne 

Praet 

Choudhury 

Iheanacho 

Mendy 

 

I've left Soumare off because I want to give him the benefit of a second season but he could easily be added of course. 

Couple of good players there but we need to raise funds and if you want to freshen up the squad you have to be willing to sell certain players. 

Probably unlikely that we sell them all, may have to use loans to make space. 

 

That will leave: 

 

Kasper 

Iverson 

Ward 

 

Justin 

Ricardo 

Evans 

Fofana 

Amartey 

Thomas 

Left footed first choice left back 

New centre back 

 

Dewsbury-hall 

Ndidi 

Soumare 

2 new central midfielders, preferably all-rounders with physicality 

 

Albrighton 

Lookman 

Barnes 

Maddison 

New right winger 

Forward who can play across the front would be perfect 

 

Vardy 

Daka 

New striker - someone with a bit of strength about them but not just a big lump 

 

Easier said than done of course. It's one thing wanting players to go and then another getting someone to sign them. 

 

 

 

[Monk]

2 hours ago, An Sionnach said:

We have to be prepared to pay £70 million or so to get anybody of Vardy's class and anybody that good wouldn't come anyway.

Yes totally agree we are not exactly going to raid Fleetwood Town again are we?

 

Ultimately we need his wages off the books if he is only going to play <20 games per season which is a reasonable assumption for next season. Saying that makes me immensely sad, he has been an absolutely amazing player for us but he is either out this summer or during the next 12 months. Imagine he will go to the states.

 

Sell Youri or offer him in a swap deal for a decent striker who wants out. I know it's aiming high but I would like to see us try to get Rashford in a swap deal (expect to be laughed at for saying that, but I think his time at united is up)

Edited 6 May 2022 by Monk

[RowlattsFox]

We probably need to look at the loan market cleverly. Problem we have is I reckon there are some good players at the big six clubs who could come here on loan but I doubt they'd allow that because we may potentially be seen as a rival for the top 6. 

[Sampson]

I think people are going to be seriously disappointed with how much we have to spend in the summer, if they’re prepared to spend £15m on Lookman as a squad player.

 

If we spend £15mil on Lookman, there’s no way we’re getting another winger in.

 

We’re in desperate need of slashing the wage bill and getting rid of players. I think anyone thinking we’re going out and spending £70mil this summer is going to be bitterly disappointed.

[RowlattsFox]

Hopefully on the look out for players who can play across positons. A striker who can play wide, or vice versa We have too many players who can play in one position but offer nothing if played slightly differently. 

[Babylon]

3 hours ago, Spudulike said:

How do you know all this then? 

I didn’t say I didn’t go to games did I. Neither did I say I didn’t watch some games on TV. Oh and me knowing this is because it’s been like this for ages and me feeling like this is the end product of it. 

[Ric Flair]

We are at a crossroads, we've been here before when we toiled after the unbelievable glory of 2015/16 and spent a few years making mistakes and not really progressing to match the ambition that we are now accustomed to under Vichai and now Top.

 

I'm pragmatic enough to accept that we face such a monumental challenge to remain progressive and the best of the rest who take advantage of any regression of the ugly 6 but at the same time we'd never have done what we'd done time and time again if we didn't have the ambition and belief to upset the narrative and tired footballing cliches. 

 

Let's be clear, we are tailing off. There's mitigating circumstances but the momentum is fast vanishing and it won't quite be as easy to pick it up next season as it was in 2020/21 after the disappointment of 2019/20 because this under performance has now lasted more than a few months, it's best part of a year or more and there's a handful of players who have mentally checked out and some others that might have gone stale here and our manager is powerless to evoke a sustained improvement from them. This happens, many good managers, some even better than Brendan have ran their course at clubs and 3.5 years is quite a long time in the modern game but I don't think he's off any time soon and so we have to put together a plan that halts this slide.

 

The non-negotiable stuff that is unforgivable is the issue with set pieces, whatever is happening whether it's a fundamental coaching and instruction issue with Rodgers and his team or the players are in a crisis of confidence that they cannot get out of, something has to change. We need a specialist set piece coach, even just for a short term confidence boost. Arsenal got one in and apparently haven't conceded from a corner or free kick all season, ALL season, not 1 goal. We are at about 25 conceded and its just staggering. This alone has been enough to take us from still being competitive in the top 8 and having some mental resolve to being an accident waiting to happen that could finish in our lowest league position since we nearly got relegated. There's no excuses, Rodgers says the team lack desire and aggression to clear the ball, I don't completely buy that it's just that but we do have a soft underbelly. But both defending and attacking set pieces is hopeless, it's like a golfer having the yips and trying to compete for the prizes, horrid.

 

The injury issues have been a huge blot on the copybook. Mistakes have been made but I'm sensing a breakthrough with this, Rodgers seems to be listening more, whether it's the new physio and the doctor departing but it feels like we're trying to rectify it and that's positive. We cannot expect to progress if we cannot keep the nucleus of our squad fit, even without 60+ games in Europe we can't simply assume we will be OK next season, we have to strive to maintain an excellent squad fitness and conditioning, we cannot afford to be without vast numbers of key players and it threatens our entire model as a club.

 

The style of football needs a shake up. Rodgers is tagged as being stubborn and refuses to change but I'm not so sure, he's made adjustments to the way his teams play and in recent times its not been positive. Our lack of movement, creativity and energy is a problem. When those key elements are missing then playing possession football is like watching your Nan eat pea's off a fork, we need to get back to what we are best at and refresh the squad to play high energy and fast football. Whether that's retaining possession more than the opposition or conceding the iniative but pressing high and setting traps to overturn play and counter, it's the only way we will succeed under Brendan. He can change as a manager but I don't think he's got the skillet to be a truly pragmatic and defensive manager, none of his teams have ever been masters at defending it's not in his D.N.A and yet in recent times here he's lost the drive to demand attacking football and tries to contain things and control games with a defence that will always provide at least 1 gift, its suicidal policy and has to change.

 

On to the squad refresh, this has to be under the model the club has been so successful at. Young and progressive players who we won't have to pay nearly 6 figures a week to and the odd experienced player with a point to prove. With no European football we may be seen as less attractive a proposition but even without that and a potential restriction on the amount of wages we can offer, we'll still be a huge huge pay increase for many of the sorts of progressive players from inferior leagues who'd be interested, like we've done proir to Rodgers coming here.

 

I think we could be open to moving on anywhere up to 10 players and bring in 6-7. I don't think we need thr size of squad we've had previously unless our injury issues continue but that's not enough of a reason to carry extra players just in case, we have to be efficiently ran.

 

Outs:

 

Soyuncu £20m

Tielemans £20m

Iheanacho £25m

Choudhury or Mendy £2m

Perez £4m

Soumare £10m

Praet loan with obligation to buy £10m

Bertrand loan

Amartey or Vestergaard £5m

Various academy loans - Wright, Braybrooke, Hirst, Wanya Marca etc

 

Ins:

 

Niakhate from Mainz / Carmo from Braga £15m / Colwill from Chelsea loan

Piroe from Swansea £20m / De Ketelaere from Brugge £25m

Kokcu from Feyenoord £25m 

Kamara from Marseille free

Lookman £12m

Madueke £20m / Johnson from Forest £25m

Ebiowi from Derby £1m

 

 

[oadby.fox]

7 hours ago, Deeg67 said:

The irony is Praet fits perfectly with a lot of what we might do next season tactically and when Youri leaves, would be a huge “addition”, but it will never happen under the current manager. 

So many were quick to write him off, sure he wasn’t the first name on the team sheet but he had his qualities. Bizarre to think that we’ve shipped him out and replaced him with Soumare, which so far in all honesty seems to be a downgrade. 
 

It’s possible that Soumare will still come good with team but you wonder if this “rebuild” will essentially culminate in trading some of our squad players out for much worse equivalents. For everything good about BR (and he does have some good qualities) I really don’t trust him with regards to recruitment and game management. We have seen so many times that he doesn’t know what a game is crying out for, or what kind of player to bring on in a certain context. He seems to misread both game situations and the skill sets of the players themselves. 
 

Some people here are talking about changing 7-9 players. Surely that would be a recipe for disaster? I can’t think of many squads in recent years that have been turned over like that and then gone on to improve immediately. I worry as well about selling players like Soyuncu (due to contract issues/bad form) whilst keeping guys like Bertrand and Veste around who will be impossible to shift.

[LeeTheFox]

8 hours ago, Genesis1 said:

Praet has been playing in a 3 behind a striker at Torino. I wouldn't be opposed to this

                    Kel

Barnes  Maddison  Praet

          Ndidi.  KDH

 

That has bottom half written all over it 🧐

Edited 6 May 2022 by LeeTheFox

[kingfox]

As I’ve stated numerous times, a Crystal Palace type refresh is needed. Last summer they signed seven, while they let seven go, the main difference though was those players were out of contract, we don’t have that luxury.

 

Soyuncu & Tielemans are both contracted until 2023, but those are the two who will more than likely get suitors and leave. 

 

It’s players like Amartey, Bertrand, Mendy, Choudhury & Perez, who are contracted until the same period, all of which should be surplus to requirements, but we may have difficulty shifting them. 
 

Ideally those seven should be out the door in the summer; however I could only see probably four of them leaving.

[adam]

We need a striker. Vardy can't be relyed upon to start next year. Daka looks well off and Ian is hopless on his own. 

 

We have a squad full of players where half of them arnt good enough to start in a league game. 

Edited 6 May 2022 by adam

[CrispinLA in Texas]

2 hours ago, Monk said:

would like to see us try to get Rashford in a swap deal (expect to be laughed at for saying that, but I think his time at united is up)

We need clever players and anyway he's on 200k aweek....we can just afford third of those wages to any new player

[Les-TA-Jon]

Worries me the amount of people happy to see Nacho go.

 

Daka is very much an unknown, unproven quantity at the moment. Remains to be seen if Vardy will ever be back in the goals again, in a meaningful way. Nacho is our best striker at the moment, but isn't particularly favoured by Rodgers/doesn't always fit our system. 

 

Where do the goals come from next season? Especially consider how poor we are in attack, generally.