Premier League 2020/21 Thread

[Ecdysiast]

You just know that somewhere in a secret lab in Brazil, Tuchel has 14 Kante clones growing in tanks ready for 2037...

[st albans fox]

47 minutes ago, OntarioFox said:

Putting the glove on the other hand for a moment, Nacho's last-minute winner against Everton - chalked off by the lino but given thanks to VAR - was euphoric.

The system needs changing and streamlining, but there's no doubting it's resulted in the letter of the law being followed more frequently. And as many have said, it's those laws that need changing. The "Wenger" offside law is a good step towards changing that for the better and making sure those lines drawn arbitrarily at Stockley Park are a little less laughable.

In my world kel’s goal is given by var because it’s been incorrectly disallowed ......

[NewEnglandFox]

Remember that conspiracy theory from a month or so ago that Newcastle were trying to go down Mike Ashley could sell the club for less?

[NasPb]

bissouma could be available if brighton go down.....

[The Bear]

48 minutes ago, Ian Nacho said:

Bit dodgy I reckon. Lots of people get information, such as FA Cup final ticketing details on social media. 

I'm sure people are resourceful enough to use individual websites for 72 hours. 

[StanSP]

3 minutes ago, NasPb said:

bissouma could be available if brighton go down.....

Brighton won't go down 

[Jobyfox]

In 2017-18 Brighton finished 15th

18/19 - 17th

19/20 (under Potter) - 15th

They are currently 16th 

 

In that period they're also quite high in the net spend table. So, as an established PL club you might expect them to be doing better. 

 

I keep seeing people fawning over Graham Potter and understand it in a way, as his team is pretty to watch. He's also bright and articulate. 

 

But nearly two full seasons in and Brighton haven't improved much in their league table position. If Potter is all he's cracked up to be he needs to start winning more games. 

[nabb7]

52 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

It’s the luck part I have an issue with, you make your own luck. The odd game you can be unlucky, when it happens repeatedly like with Brighton it has nothing to do with luck and is down to really poor finishing that they haven’t addressed.

Its poor defending, repeatedly in close games - it’s not luck, they are not good enough. 

similarly it was a common theme during our first season back in the prem that we were always in games, just didn't manage to get the goals etc. In the end it wasn't a change of fortunes that led to the great escape it was a change of formation and a new centre back. Sooner Brighton acknowledge that the sooner they can start getting the points many seem to think they deserve

[deanolegend1989]

I think the offside law at the minute is an absolute joke but it’s so easy to fix.

 

Firstly change the rule so it’s not a stupid part of the body or arm, focus JUST on feet. That was absolutely farcical ones like bamfords won’t be ruled out.

 

So focus on feet, then:

1. Click a red line on the last defenders foot.

2. Click a green line on the attackers foot.

3. The computer can then tell the distance the green line is ahead of the red line.

4. Give a range where the attacker gets the benefit of ‘marginal’ decisions. I’d say somewhere between 1’ to 2’ or maybe 2-5cm(experience of a year of VAR could determine the range thats the right compromise for ruling out ‘noticeable offsides’ but allowing any of the ‘unnoticeable offsides’ by giving a small range).

 

5. Set the computer to that given range by rule makers and every close call just click the lines in and the computer shows the difference in centimetres between the lines(I’m sure technology could do this).

If the rule set is 2cm, click in the lines on each players feet in question, computer calculates the gap. If 2.01cm or higher it’s off. If 2.00 or lower then it’s on.

 

What this would do:

1) Consistency. No one could complain.

2) A lot quicker to get the answer. No stupid guessing games from the idiots in Stockly park.

3) Ability to go mental at goals and not ruin celebrations. I didn’t celebrate Vardys goal, I thought it might be off so didn’t want to go mad thinking it might be off.

Of course this could be similar still, but less common. If the Lino don’t put the flag up, it’s usually close. When close , you will most likely not be over ruled by this method of giving a small leeway to the attackers.

4) More excitement, more goals but NOT to the point where you can make a mockery of the game by being hugely offside and still getting rewarded.

 

This would solve the problem 100% and make the game exciting, consistent and quick in the decisions - whilst seeing more goals and rewarding better creative play.

[Bats8711]

2 hours ago, Dunge said:

Disagree.

 

I’ve never wanted VAR from the start, but I’ve reached the point now where I don’t even care whether it’s getting decisions right or not. VAR’s very existence meant that I had to sit there and wait for a kick-off on Thursday because I didn’t know whether Vardy’s goal would be offside by a toenail. It’s excruciatingly horrible and I hate it.

 

If video assistance can’t provide a decision in real time, it’s not fit for purpose. In fact, I’m convinced that VAR will never be good enough to do that. And that’s why it has to die.

But - what about the other 50% of the time that Vardy is called offside incorrectly on that play (it was very tight), and without VAR the goal wouldn't have counted when it should've (i.e. Nacho against Everton last season)?  That'd be pretty annoying too.  Your last sentence proves that they've won - somehow in 2 seasons of complete mismanagement and ****ery, they've convinced people that it's impossible for VAR to ever work, when a couple common sense changes could easily make it what it's supposed to be - a quick and unintrusive way to fix clear errors.  Almost like they are intentionally sabotaging it. 

[hackneyfox]

6 minutes ago, deanolegend1989 said:

I think the offside law at the minute is an absolute joke but it’s so easy to fix.

 

Firstly change the rule so it’s not a stupid part of the body or arm, focus JUST on feet. That was absolutely farcical ones like bamfords won’t be ruled out.

 

So focus on feet, then:

1. Click a red line on the last defenders foot.

2. Click a green line on the attackers foot.

3. The computer can then tell the distance the green line is ahead of the red line.

4. Give a range where the attacker gets the benefit of ‘marginal’ decisions. I’d say somewhere between 1’ to 2’ or maybe 2-5cm(experience of a year of VAR could determine the range thats the right compromise for ruling out ‘noticeable offsides’ but allowing any of the ‘unnoticeable offsides’ by giving a small range).

 

5. Set the computer to that given range by rule makers and every close call just click the lines in and the computer shows the difference in centimetres between the lines(I’m sure technology could do this).

If the rule set is 2cm, click in the lines on each players feet in question, computer calculates the gap. If 2.01cm or higher it’s off. If 2.00 or lower then it’s on.

 

What this would do:

1) Consistency. No one could complain.

2) A lot quicker to get the answer. No stupid guessing games from the idiots in Stockly park.

3) Ability to go mental at goals and not ruin celebrations. I didn’t celebrate Vardys goal, I thought it might be off so didn’t want to go mad thinking it might be off.

Of course this could be similar still, but less common. If the Lino don’t put the flag up, it’s usually close. When close , you will most likely not be over ruled by this method of giving a small leeway to the attackers.

4) More excitement, more goals but NOT to the point where you can make a mockery of the game by being hugely offside and still getting rewarded.

 

This would solve the problem 100% and make the game exciting, consistent and quick in the decisions - whilst seeing more goals and rewarding better creative play.

So you've moved the marker for being offside to the feet, then 2cm has to be added and then it s plus/minus .01cm as to whether it's offside, and the decision will be so quick we can celebrate immediately?

How is that any quicker than what we currently have?

[Lambert09]

Just a thought but perhaps var decisions should only be shown at full speed. If they still aren’t sure then it’s clearly not an obvious error. 
 

 

Edited 25 April 2021 by Lambert09

[Dunge]

39 minutes ago, Bats8711 said:

But - what about the other 50% of the time that Vardy is called offside incorrectly on that play (it was very tight), and without VAR the goal wouldn't have counted when it should've (i.e. Nacho against Everton last season)?  That'd be pretty annoying too.  Your last sentence proves that they've won - somehow in 2 seasons of complete mismanagement and ****ery, they've convinced people that it's impossible for VAR to ever work, when a couple common sense changes could easily make it what it's supposed to be - a quick and unintrusive way to fix clear errors.  Almost like they are intentionally sabotaging it. 

That’s still nothing compared to a real time goal. I can live with being annoyed, finding out a bad decision has gone against you. What’s terrible is not being able to celebrate in the moment when the ball hits the back of the net. That Iheanacho goal was a great moment, but it’s not even nearly worth the endless counter-examples where a goal can’t be celebrated. I saw the way video technology was used in rugby in the years before VAR. That’s a stop-start, technical game and I hated it in that too for much the same reason.

 

And that’s the point - how can VAR possibly work to give decisions in the moment? If it requires human intervention, people going back over videos, it can’t. As I say, I don’t even care if it gets every single decision absolutely correct any more, I just hate that it’s even there, the equivalent of an old, grey man with an old, grey moustache in an old grey suit saying “now just hold on a minute here before anyone starts celebrating; let’s check to see whether Blue 10 was marginally offside in the build-up... let me put the lines up on screen to check... now let me put some more lines up on screen to compare... yes, I can confirm that is acceptable”. I’ve had enough of having Video Assisted Buzz Killington tell us when it’s alright to celebrate without looking like dickheads.

[OntarioFox]

46 minutes ago, Jobyfox said:

In 2017-18 Brighton finished 15th

18/19 - 17th

19/20 (under Potter) - 15th

They are currently 16th 

 

In that period they're also quite high in the net spend table. So, as an established PL club you might expect them to be doing better. 

 

I keep seeing people fawning over Graham Potter and understand it in a way, as his team is pretty to watch. He's also bright and articulate. 

 

But nearly two full seasons in and Brighton haven't improved much in their league table position. If Potter is all he's cracked up to be he needs to start winning more games. 

Thaaaaank youuuuuu!

I could have sarcastically responded to the comments defending them as "a player or two away" from being good as being from the very football hipsters I'm talking about, but you did it for me. The reality is that they're just a bit gash. Yes, they've had their fair share of bad luck in games, but they're also woefully inconsistent and generally just don't score enough goals to show for the amount they tend to have the ball in matches. Them losing to Palace and West Brom in the space of a week with 75% and 71% possession respectively was hilarious. Today, again - 69% possession (nice), 17 shots... 1-0 defeat. There's something so off with that team. You don't stay that inept in front of goal for pretty much two calendar years unless something stinks on the training ground, be that mentality or the drills themselves.

xG merchants love them, but also hate them because they have single-handedly disproven the science behind that stat over the past two seasons, in the same way we did when we won the league despite often winning games 1-0 with practically our only clear cut chances. There have been maybe two games this season where they actually hit the target consistently and you could chalk it up to a MOTM performance from the opposing goalie. Normally though, even when they have a lot of shots in a game, the vast majority are off-target - the result of a lack of incision in the final third, resulting in pot-shots or naff attempts from set pieces. Today against the Blades was a perfect example - 17 shots, but only four on target. Another nice fat xG haul for hipsters to fawn over, but nothing to show for it yet again.

 

And they don't even play particularly attractive football - just another form of the dull-ass, slow build-up posession game that works only if your players are cultured enough to pull it off without sloppy passing or a loss of "intensiteeee" - see, for example, our current crop trying it under Rodgers vs. Puelball or Ranieri trying to force our title-winning squad to adopt it overnight. They don't have a Tielemans to pull the strings and pick a killer pass, or a set of wingbacks capable of playing neat triangles to turn up the tempo at a moment's notice and make it work in attack. Neither did we until relatively recently, which is why we spent three years in the doldrums between the title and Rodgers' arrival, playing ugly languid football while the pundits still assumed we were a counter-attacking team. Which leads me to the next point...

The irony can't be lost on me that, with the exception of them spanking a Newcastle side in rancid form last month, all their wins have come when they threw their tactical approach out the window and adopted a counter-attacking style. They are a mirror-image of what we were under Puel - a possession-for-the-sake-of-possession team that concedes silly goals, wastes the clear-cut chances that comes its way even when dominant, and only tends to win games when it throws the philosophy out the window and plays to its actual counter-attacking strengths.

 

Sorry, not sorry - wouldn't be sad to see them drop if it does happen.

[jayfox26]

2 hours ago, nabb7 said:

similarly it was a common theme during our first season back in the prem that we were always in games, just didn't manage to get the goals etc. In the end it wasn't a change of fortunes that led to the great escape it was a change of formation and a new centre back. Sooner Brighton acknowledge that the sooner they can start getting the points many seem to think they deserve

I think its a new striker they need desperately. They have created loads of chances this season but just don't have a natural finisher. If they had Callum Wilson (providing he stayed fit) he'd easy score 15 in that team. Their leading scorer is Maupay with 8 and he's played most games. Barnes and Nacho both have 9 for us with less games played and even Maddison has 8, also with less games played. After Maupay they have Dunk, welbeck and Trossard on 4. That's pathetic for a team that likes to play attacking football and create chances. 

[Nicolo Barella]

1 hour ago, OntarioFox said:

xG merchants love them, but also hate them because they have single-handedly disproven the science behind that stat over the past two seasons, 

I disagree with most of your comment, but just wanted to point out that Brighton having much higher xG than their actual goals disproves nothing. xG is literally just a measure of average finishing. The average finisher in the Top 5 leagues/Premier League (depends on which company is doing the calculating) is the baseline used for xG. It's no surprise, then, that Brighton underperform xG consistently, because none of their players know how to finish. 

 

Brighton underperforming their xG supports the science behind xG. Because all their finishers are below average, their finishing lags behind what their xG says it should, because xG assumes an average finisher.

 

This is why good players like Vardy and Son consistently outperform their xG. Because their finishing is better than average. 

[trabuch]

@OntarioFox What is your problem with Brighton? I'm sure it goes beyond football.

[OntarioFox]

9 minutes ago, trabuch said:

@OntarioFox What is your problem with Brighton? I'm sure it goes beyond football.

I have absolutely nothing against Brighton lmao - if you're trying to insinuate something about me then guess again - in fact if it's about THAT aspect of their reputation as a place, well let's just say I'd fit right in, though that's none of your business. 

 

Their football team is just over-rated. That's all. Has been since the day Graham Potter walked through the door.

 

As for the xG thing, I'm just using it in the same way Brighton's defenders often do - by swearing week after week that they're due to turn a corner and that the stats say they should be scoring a bucket load. They never do, because their composure in the final third is terrible.

 

Their team can't simultaneously be way better than its goal return suggests, and also full of useless strikers, right @Nicolo Barella?

Edited 25 April 2021 by OntarioFox

[Sooper Steve's shin]

5 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

Just a thought but perhaps var decisions should only be shown at full speed. If they still aren’t sure then it’s clearly not an obvious error. 
 

 

Hopefully this is a joke. Offsides are 100% objective - you’re on or you’re off. That’s why this and @deanolegend1989’s 2cm “margin for error” are completely wrong. You can use the “clear and obvious” error approach for penalties and red cards because those rules will always incorporate some element of opinion. But offside is (or should be) black and white. 
 

I do think there is something to be said, though, from determining it by position of the feet and not other parts of the body. While, in theory, it makes some sense to refer to any part that can lawfully score a goal, with current tech it’s hard to differentiate arm from torso and upper arm from lower arm when the player is wearing a shirt. Plus, an attacker will naturally be leaning towards the goal they are attacking with a defender playing offside leaning away from goal. Foot position makes more sense as it’s clearer to see what is being measured. 

[trabuch]

14 minutes ago, Sooper Steve's shin said:

Hopefully this is a joke. Offsides are 100% objective - you’re on or you’re off. That’s why this and @deanolegend1989’s 2cm “margin for error” are completely wrong. You can use the “clear and obvious” error approach for penalties and red cards because those rules will always incorporate some element of opinion. But offside is (or should be) black and white. 
 

I do think there is something to be said, though, from determining it by position of the feet and not other parts of the body. While, in theory, it makes some sense to refer to any part that can lawfully score a goal, with current tech it’s hard to differentiate arm from torso and upper arm from lower arm when the player is wearing a shirt. Plus, an attacker will naturally be leaning towards the goal they are attacking with a defender playing offside leaning away from goal. Foot position makes more sense as it’s clearer to see what is being measured. 

They aren't. The decision when to freeze the frame is subjective. 

[Nicolo Barella]

50 minutes ago, OntarioFox said:

I have absolutely nothing against Brighton lmao - if you're trying to insinuate something about me then guess again - in fact if it's about THAT aspect of their reputation as a place, well let's just say I'd fit right in, though that's none of your business. 

 

Their football team is just over-rated. That's all. Has been since the day Graham Potter walked through the door.

 

As for the xG thing, I'm just using it in the same way Brighton's defenders often do - by swearing week after week that they're due to turn a corner and that the stats say they should be scoring a bucket load. They never do, because their composure in the final third is terrible.

 

Their team can't simultaneously be way better than its goal return suggests, and also full of useless strikers, right @Nicolo Barella?

Brighton's problem comes down almost exclusively to shit finishing. The quality of their chances isn't in question, or their xG would be poorer than it is. They're a very bizarre team in that if they had Kane instead of Maupay they'd definitely be in the top half. Now, I do think Potter is at least somewhat to blame - if you have no good finishers, maybe you should switch your tactics to reflect that. 

 

Whether a team's overall quality can be separated from the quality of its finishers - Connolly, Maupay, Trossard, and the other forwards - is up to the discretion of the individual judging the team, its subjective imo.

[dayday]

HARRY REDKNAPP 

Ruthless Tottenham will have sorted a new boss before sacking Jose Mourinho… for me, Brendan Rodgers would be perfect
 

THE timing and the speed of Jose Mourinho’s departure told me one thing for certain - Spurs have already done a deal for their next manager.

There’s no doubt Tottenham will have spoken to someone about the job, I know exactly how it works.

Mauricio Pochettino left at 8pm one night and by 8am the next morning Jose was  at the ground and ready to take training. It’s just how it goes.

I’d say the man they have lined up is in work at the moment and can’t leave until the season is done - or if it’s an international manager, until after the Euros.

That’s why Ryan Mason is in charge for now - but I guarantee they will have something sorted already.

 

It may be a German, an Italian, a national team manager like Belgium’s Roberto Martinez, or someone in the Midlands.

But they’ve definitely got someone lined up - and if you asked me who I’d put in, it would be Brendan Rodgers ahead of Martinez and RB Leipzig’s Julian Nagelsmann.

I’d have thought Brendan has a great chance, too, because I know they went for him when they got rid of me.

They spoke to him a few times before Andre Villas-Boas got the job.

 

I know he’s got an FA Cup final to come and the top four to go for with Leicester but look at the potential at Spurs and it’s massive.

 

 

He could win things at Tottenham that they never have before - but he’ll never beat what Claudio Ranieri did, because Leicester were Premier League champions under him.

It’s all about timing - like no one really wanting to be the man who followed Sir Alex Ferguson at Manchester United.

Tottenham’s stadium is the best in the country, if you keep Harry Kane and Son Heung-min, get Dele Alli playing again, a bit of tinkering and they wouldn’t be a million miles off.

I don’t go along with anyone who says Jose was sacked now because it would have been more difficult if he won the Carabao Cup this afternoon. That would make no difference.

Owner Joe Lewis and chairman Daniel Levy are fearless and ruthless - I finished fourth, a point off third place, and they got rid of me!

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

17 minutes ago, dayday said:

HARRY REDKNAPP 

Ruthless Tottenham will have sorted a new boss before sacking Jose Mourinho… for me, Brendan Rodgers would be perfect
 

THE timing and the speed of Jose Mourinho’s departure told me one thing for certain - Spurs have already done a deal for their next manager.

There’s no doubt Tottenham will have spoken to someone about the job, I know exactly how it works.

Mauricio Pochettino left at 8pm one night and by 8am the next morning Jose was  at the ground and ready to take training. It’s just how it goes.

I’d say the man they have lined up is in work at the moment and can’t leave until the season is done - or if it’s an international manager, until after the Euros.

That’s why Ryan Mason is in charge for now - but I guarantee they will have something sorted already.

 

It may be a German, an Italian, a national team manager like Belgium’s Roberto Martinez, or someone in the Midlands.

But they’ve definitely got someone lined up - and if you asked me who I’d put in, it would be Brendan Rodgers ahead of Martinez and RB Leipzig’s Julian Nagelsmann.

I’d have thought Brendan has a great chance, too, because I know they went for him when they got rid of me.

They spoke to him a few times before Andre Villas-Boas got the job.

 

I know he’s got an FA Cup final to come and the top four to go for with Leicester but look at the potential at Spurs and it’s massive.

 

 

He could win things at Tottenham that they never have before - but he’ll never beat what Claudio Ranieri did, because Leicester were Premier League champions under him.

It’s all about timing - like no one really wanting to be the man who followed Sir Alex Ferguson at Manchester United.

Tottenham’s stadium is the best in the country, if you keep Harry Kane and Son Heung-min, get Dele Alli playing again, a bit of tinkering and they wouldn’t be a million miles off.

I don’t go along with anyone who says Jose was sacked now because it would have been more difficult if he won the Carabao Cup this afternoon. That would make no difference.

Owner Joe Lewis and chairman Daniel Levy are fearless and ruthless - I finished fourth, a point off third place, and they got rid of me!

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me at the end of the season if 'Arry is right. If we win the FA Cup and finish top 4, Rodgers can say he's achieved what he set out to do with us and could go to Spurs with hugely re enhanced reputation and a lower risk shot for restoring the 'glory' the cocks have tried to bask in since 1961 

[Matt]

13 minutes ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me at the end of the season if 'Arry is right. If we win the FA Cup and finish top 4, Rodgers can say he's achieved what he set out to do with us and could go to Spurs with hugely re enhanced reputation and a lower risk shot for restoring the 'glory' the cocks have tried to bask in since 1961 

Other than 'money talks' I don't see any excuse for player(s) or management to leave if we make top 4 and win the FA Cup.

 

I've had this debate with people before mainly when players have left us, Tottenham are a bigger club, bigger stadium, London, but surely in this moment in time we're in a more progressive club, in better position, with a better squad, even more so if Kane leaves Tottenham in the summer, do they even have that much money to spend? Not to add their actions over the last week (And beyond - the Furloughing staff stunt) and any potential punishments (We all know it'll be a slap on the wrist but we can hope for more).

 

I've said a couple of times this week, given the last 7 days, perhaps it about time people in football start looking beyond (more) money and start thinking about the people who are employing them and the disregard they hold them in.

 

Edited 25 April 2021 by Matt

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

Just now, Matt said:

Other than 'money talks' I don't see any excuse for player(s) or management to leave if we make top 4 and win the FA Cup.

 

I've had this debate with people before mainly when players have left us, Tottenham are a bigger club, bigger stadium, London, but surely in this moment in time we're in a more progressive club, in better position, with a better squad, even more so if Kane leaves Tottenham in the summer, do they even have that much money to spend? Not to add their actions over the last week (And beyond - the Furloughing staff stunt) and any potential punishments (We all know it'll be a slap on the wrist but we can hope for more).

 

I've said a couple of times this week, given the last 7 days, perhaps it about time people in football start looking beyond the money and start thinking about the people who are employing them and the disregard they hold them in.

It wouldn't about the money but about ego.