England vs Argentina - Weds 15th July - 20.00 (BST)

[AKCJ]

Just now, The Doctor said:

 genuinely do not remember a 'punch'. BBC made nothing of it, the England fans I was watching the game while chatting to had no mention of it. let's be honest, you're looking for someone to blame and rather than blaming your manager for being a coward, your 116m defensive midfielder for not closing down a bloke who has a record of long rangers and was looking for that shot all game, or your collection of 6ft defenders letting a 5'9 bloke get a free header, you're looking to feel cheated. Ref was adequate, completely unnoticeable to any neutral - England lost that because they surrendered all initiative from the moment they scored and defended like clowns

More an elbow than a punch. Happened within the first 2/3 minutes.

 

BBC showed one replay of it but then left it. Not sure if they discussed it at half time.

 

One of those ones where no referee is ever going to give it so early in a semi final and I suspect the Argentinians knew that. Suspect if he did it in the 2nd half he would have been in a lot of bother for it though.

[AKCJ]

1 hour ago, CosbehFox said:

The Fernandez ‘punch’ on the back of Anderson’s neck was an absolute joke that it didn’t get punished. While Simeone must have made six fouls in the first thirty minutes with no punishment 

Fernandez, Paredes and Simeone were all seemingly allowed to do what they liked without repercussion. 

[HP1]

5 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

Should be a very heavy punishment on Argentina as a collective and the individual players who chose to parade that banner.

If we did something like that the full force of FIFA law would come.crashing down on us.."English disease.." yada yada.

[Samilktray]

1 minute ago, AKCJ said:

Fernandez, Paredes and Simeone were all seemingly allowed to do what they liked without repercussion. 

Yeah the first half was a bit mental for this, anyone arguing otherwise are just plain wrong. That Simeone challenge where just dived head first into Guehi? (could be wrong) not even getting a yellow was just very funny. Enzo whacked Anderson in the back of the head after about 3 minutes and I dont think the ref even spoke to him. 

[Pliskin]

29 minutes ago, CruzNoir said:

Best chance is abit of a stretch

 

we crashed out to the current World Champions and if we won, we’d have faced the current European Champions 

 

we had “a” chance but we still had an unfavourable path forward

 

Tuchel messed it up, and the players in English fashion, lost their heads 

I don’t think it is. 
 

It’s on the manager to react to this and make the correct changes, which he didn’t do. At 1-0 up, with 20 or so to play, to have Kane isolated upfront with no outlets is criminal. 

[Muzzy_no7]

5 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Fernandez, Paredes and Simeone were all seemingly allowed to do what they liked without repercussion. 

There is no question that the game wasn’t refereed fairly in the first half, no question. 
 

We then take the lead deservedly but what the manager and players did after the goal was unacceptable and unforgivable. 
 

For me, Tuchel has failed and should be relieved of his duties. He did what he said he wouldn’t do. Against Mexico it was the right thing to do, but last night everyone could see it…everyone bar him. 
 

I do wonder whether Pep could be tempted or if the Foreign World Class manager experiment has now ran its course.

 

Eddie Howe? Lampard?

[davieG]

1nil and we ****ed it up.

[ramboacdc]

57 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Jesus christ. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c5yv3e5y0w4o

 

His dad had just died. No wonder he was highly strung, that's shit. Can't imagine being stood live in front of your whole country immediately after finding out. 

 

 

55 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

Yeah could tell he seemed a bit off last night, poor bloke 

 

I thought he made some great points. He was more enthusiastic than the others saying how he just wanted a great game and giving no predictions and nailed manager at the end. He was very, very pissed off when it was clear that for the corner for the equaliser werent even looking and walking about. Sad to hear about losing his dad and so much credit to him being able to stand there and still do his job. 

 

Got a lot of time for Micah. For CBS he gets to be mental and loud. BBC when hes with Rooney I think is great. 

 

I slowly warmed to Hart over the night. Sympathetic as 2/3rd of the pundits had been there themselves being knocked out and were able to dissect it and would have gone in on the players if they deserved it i feel. 

 

Morning after the night before and I think getting to the semi and getting the country rallying against the Argentinans masked a lot of stuff. I hated Southgate ball. I am one of those who stand firm that Southgate wasn't a good manager. He had lucky run ins and whenever we faced anyone of any difficulty we fell apart. Him being on that High Performance podcast with that prat Jake Humphries yesterday blaming the fans for him leaving as they, rightfully, hated his football make my piss boil. It was Southgate ball from the goal. We conceded less under Southgate and had some big scares this tournament over teams we should be steamrolling. We get as far as we do as Kane and Bellingham's world class drags us kicking and screaming through. 

 

I wont give a shit about England now until 2028. We were booing tuchel at Villa park before the tournament and were not convincing all tournament. He always was a shit manager who didnt deserve the job and still doesn’t. We are stuck with him though as no one else would take it who the fans would want. Howe wont take it even if you prayed for it. 

 

Now time for me to prepare for our season. 23 days of football free life for me until we take on Northampton. 

[Number 6]

At least we still get to watch us get pumped by France too.

[st albans fox]

Scaloni set out to make the game as short as possible for messi to be as effective as possible. The fact that he managed to take on our two left sided players and beat them to the byline on his weaker foot at the end of the game tells you that their tactics worked perfectly. we could do little about that in the first half because their nouse in breaking up the game was too good.  But in the second period we should have upped the intensity by bringing on fresh legs - it wasn’t hot - and yet it was clear some of our players were toiling.  That’s definitely on the coach who showed his lack of trust in players he’d selected for his squad. 
 

if we have a foreign coach then he needs to be a difference maker. We thought that was tuchel - seems like it isn’t. we’ve  screwed ourselves over with his new contract. There may have been a break option if we’d failed to make the last 16 but reaching the semis is where we are as a top four nation. 

[CosbehFox]

26 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

 genuinely do not remember a 'punch'. BBC made nothing of it, the England fans I was watching the game while chatting to had no mention of it. let's be honest, you're looking for someone to blame and rather than blaming your manager for being a coward, your 116m defensive midfielder for not closing down a bloke who has a record of long rangers and was looking for that shot all game, or your collection of 6ft defenders letting a 5'9 bloke get a free header, you're looking to feel cheated. Ref was adequate, completely unnoticeable to any neutral - England lost that because they surrendered all initiative from the moment they scored and defended like clowns

I'm really not. I've literally typed two posts this morning about the tactics. The failure to push Argentina further up the pitch. England playing into Messi's hands whom has a long history of playing precisely that game of a low break he has to try and break down. However, the officiating in the first twenty minutes five minutes was extremely lenient. 

 

The Enzo Fernandez elbow/punch was mentioned on broadcasters such as Mexican TV, so it's certainly been noted by neutrals(Hernandez from Mexico notably criticising it). Philippe Auclair, a chap I think is absolutely spot on when it comes to football opinion and of course French laid out his distaste for those Argentine tactics pre-match. 

[fox_favourite]

I genuinely think Argentina will be lost when Golden boy retires. They are so engrained in worshipping him and playing to his strengths, they won't know what to do when he isn't there. 

[CosbehFox]

36 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

This is possible 
 

See above - maybe he is taking the flak for the player’s mentality issue when the chips re really down. 
 

but then these players have made it through last two euro semi finals - late extra time winner v Denmark and last minute winner v Holland.  I suppose neither of those shout control. 

 

the shirt continues to weigh heavy and I can’t see how we get out of this. 

The players were knackered - that was always going to be the greatest challenge for England's route. The task of playing in altitude followed by Miami's heat and then going into a game which is mentally exhausting more than anything. 

 

That's up to Tuchel to find an answer - sometime that includes taking off Kane and Bellingham to get some pressing up on the front line, someone to hold it up, someone to run twenty yards with it. If England even kept possession for what 10% more of that final thirty minutes, that probably kills five to six minutes and slightly dials up the urgency on Argentina. 

 

Egypt and Cape Verde both told us the way to play against Argentina in that scenario because their line is far too high for their centre backs to deal with. Both of whom England had got on yellow cards. 

 

Simply no intelligence on or off the pitch. 

[VLC86]

How on earth can Tuchel continue after that. We had 12% possession after we scored, from an experienced manager to go so defensive in that situation it’s astonishing.

[TheGoldenGod]

11 hours ago, bovril said:

What a great 12 months of football eh 

Its no surprise us Leicester fans are so miserable. I've watched shite for genuinely 2 years no stop! No joy in football anymore.

[foxfanazer]

We do have a bit of a victim mentality 

[Chelmofox]

It's easy to criticise Kane for not turning up in the big, big games. But he has dug us out of so many holes in the last few years. We would be nowhere near this semi final without him.

 

My concern moving forward is that, without him, where will we be? My first world cup memory was 1986, so vividly remember the disappointments. Young lot (like my son) now think semi finals are the bare minimum.  But i look at the squad Tuchel took and still think we are overachieving to a degree - i don't believe our defence is anywhere near good enough.

 

Father time is going to catch up with Kane, and it sometimes happens quickly - he's 32. When that happens, i have a horrible feeling we go back to where we were quite quickly. 

 

 

[RonnieTodger]

Almost wish we lost to Norway now

[RowlattsFox]

Subs were poor yes but players need to take some responsibility too for their inability to control the game after the goal. The 10 minutes between scoring and the hydration break, we failed to manage the game. That caused Tuchel to panic and go defensive way too early. 

We will never win tournaments and beat the best until we can control a game with the ball. 

 

Kane is a brilliant goalscorer, one of the best but he is a hindrance against better teams. Not so much for Bayern Munich because he's surrounded by world class players and they are rarely under the cosh. But for England in the latter stages of tournaments, he's far too deep and we have no focal point high up the pitch. He's also knackered at this point. 

 

I don't think Tuchel has changed anything compared to Southgate. But I'm not sure anyone can with the pool of players we have, this is our level, just behind the very best. It's also a mentality thing, if Argentina scored first would they have sat back? They'd have been dirty, horrible and disruptive but they wouldn't have sat on their own box.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by RowlattsFox

[String fellow]

The tactic of defending deep and trying to hold out against Argentina was probably based on the Mexico game, when it worked. But against stronger opposition, it never was going to work and Tuchel is to blame. We were thrashed, despite the scoreline and despite all our superstars, and even lowly Cape Verde did better against them than we did.

[CL Fox]

Never had kane as world class but I think he is low key a problem for england in big games

[Manwell Pablo]

This is going to be a typical Manwell Pablo outspoken opinion that is actually correct but it’s right so I’m going to say it. 
 

I’ve listened to people say the difference between Southgate and Tuchel is he knows when to make the right tactical change. 
 

I can’t even be arsed to go into detail but for what he did last night and his initial squad selection he needs sacking, the fa won’t do it and that’s fine but we will win nothing while he’s in charge, 

 

Don’t even feel bad about losing to Argentina as we beat ourselves. 

[VLC86]

10 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

It's easy to criticise Kane for not turning up in the big, big games. But he has dug us out of so many holes in the last few years. We would be nowhere near this semi final without him.

 

My concern moving forward is that, without him, where will we be? My first world cup memory was 1986, so vividly remember the disappointments. Young lot (like my son) now think semi finals are the bare minimum.  But i look at the squad Tuchel took and still think we are overachieving to a degree - i don't believe our defence is anywhere near good enough.

 

Father time is going to catch up with Kane, and it sometimes happens quickly - he's 32. When that happens, i have a horrible feeling we go back to where we were quite quickly. 

 

 

It’s difficult to say where we would be without him. At this moment, I’m sat on the fence between thinking that without him we would be more reliant on the wide players and still having decent goalscorers up there and having no chance without someone of his scoring ability.

 

I think realistically, we’ve just missed our last good chance of winning something for a long time and probably until we end up with another world class finisher.

[VLC86]

2 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

This is going to be a typical Manwell Pablo outspoken opinion that is actually correct but it’s right so I’m going to say it. 
 

I’ve listened to people say the difference between Southgate and Tuchel is he knows when to make the right tactical change. 
 

I can’t even be arsed to go into detail but for what he did last night and his initial squad selection he needs sacking, the fa won’t do it and that’s fine but we will win nothing while he’s in charge, 

 

Don’t even feel bad about losing to Argentina as we beat ourselves. 

Are you still pissed 😂

 

Completely agree with the second part though, and it’s clearly not an unpopular opinion.

[JonnyZeroFox]

Minnows play that way when they’re outmatched. England should never be doing it with this squad. At 1-0 up in a World Cup semi-final, we should have been brave enough to keep playing, not retreat like Albania trying to survive against Argentina. That was the disgusting part… England chose to act like the inferior team. Pathetic, Tuchel must go