Corona Virus

[brucey]

29 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

If they don’t work, why do doctors use them during surgery and at other times? Surgical masks are mostly to prevent doctors from infecting their patients. Isn’t that exact what we’re trying to do here, stop the spread of infection? In an ideal world, at the present time everyone would wear a mask in public. This I believe is one of the reasons that places like South Korea have handled this crisis much better than the west.

The same people who told the public that surgical masks are ineffective to protect themselves, are now telling NHS staff that surgical masks are all they need to protect themselves against confirmed cases. These are the blue rectangular ones, not the N95/FFP3 ones. Some places are even getting staff to sterilise and reuse one surgical mask. With proper full-on PPE, none of the 42k staff helping with Wuhan's second wave got infected. Whereas several UK doctors have already died, and numerous others infected. This is a massive issue....

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30727-3/fulltext

Edited 27 March 2020 by brucey

[Kopfkino]

17 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Probably the worst aspect of the response of western nations to this crisis has been to poo poo the use of masks. As I understand, most are made in China, and at an early stage China banned exports, which lead to a shortage in customer countries.

 

Western leaders naturally wanted remaining supplies to be reserved for medical and other front line workers, but Instead of owning to up having fvcked up on a grand scale by not having any contingency arrangements to supply these items in a crisis, they instead demonised the use of them in public by claiming that they don’t work and that anyone wearing them is panicking.

 

If they don’t work, why do doctors use them during surgery and at other times? Surgical masks are mostly to prevent doctors from infecting their patients. Isn’t that exact what we’re trying to do here, stop the spread of infection? In an ideal world, at the present time everyone would wear a mask in public. This I believe is one of the reasons that places like South Korea have handled this crisis much better than the west.

 

A massive effort should be underway to massively increase mask production.

 

Nobody ever tried to hide that the masks are possibly of use stop the infected infecting others. But we're telling people to not go out if they're possibly infected which is obviously even better for stopping infection than a mask. Plus I find it very hard to believe that you'd be able to get a significant enough proportion of the population to regularly wear masks for it to be useful and so the small amount of people siphoning off supplies that would be better used elsewhere is undesirable. 

[Mike Oxlong]

Do it for @Trav Le Bleu

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Do it for @Trav Le Bleu

We had rubber gloves for the first time today. (Ikr) On my first street the end of my index finger glove was ripped off, by the end of the round they were pointless and totally shredded. I'm forever cutting my hand on people's letterbox.

[foxile5]

How long can this lockdown go on for, on reality. 

 

People haven't managed a week very well. What's it going to be like after two more. 

[Costock_Fox]

4 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

We had rubber gloves for the first time today. (Ikr) On my first street the end of my index finger glove was ripped off, by the end of the round they were pointless and totally shredded. I'm forever cutting my hand on people's letterbox.

And what state are you leaving the letterboxes in? Pretend you are feeding a horse.

[Costock_Fox]

1 minute ago, foxile5 said:

How long can this lockdown go on for, on reality. 

 

People haven't managed a week very well. What's it going to be like after two more. 

It will be longer than that.

[StanSP]

Just now, foxile5 said:

How long can this lockdown go on for, on reality. 

 

People haven't managed a week very well. What's it going to be like after two more. 

As long as it takes. People have to realise this won't be lifted under any circumstances until 13th April (I think that's the date).

 

The sooner people accept that fate, the easier it is to manage yourself within that time. It's not going to be easy but nobody said it was going to be.

[Matt_Lcfc]

3 minutes ago, StanSP said:

As long as it takes. People have to realise this won't be lifted under any circumstances until 13th April (I think that's the date).

 

The sooner people accept that fate, the easier it is to manage yourself within that time. It's not going to be easy but nobody said it was going to be.

Exactly that. The quicker *certain* people start to realise the measures that are in place are there to benefit people, the quicker that we can resume to some form of normality. Although I’m not too sure what that will look like.

[WigstonWanderer]

41 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Nobody ever tried to hide that the masks are possibly of use stop the infected infecting others. But we're telling people to not go out if they're possibly infected which is obviously even better for stopping infection than a mask. Plus I find it very hard to believe that you'd be able to get a significant enough proportion of the population to regularly wear masks for it to be useful and so the small amount of people siphoning off supplies that would be better used elsewhere is undesirable. 

They seemed to have managed this in parts of Asia.

Edited 27 March 2020 by WigstonWanderer

[CosbehFox]

5 hours ago, filbertway said:

I find is fascinating that some people think the government should have locked everyone inside for an indeterminate amount of time till a vaccines is ready then expect everyone to pop out there houses with cheery smiles. If you start a lock down with the intention of nobody catching the virus then you have to stay in that state till the virus is no longer a danger right? Nobody died from the virus but half the country opened their wrists after watching Mrs Browns boys live for the 10,000th time.

It will be three months as it is. When this week ends, that will be 1 down of 12. Italy was expected to peak earlier this week and its still soaring. 
 

Clearly the NHS capacity has been bust.
 

Asking around for retired doctors/nurses, thousands of volunteers and setting up hospitals in huge conference centres. It’s a ****ing mess and I’m scratching my head to wonder how the **** these charlatans in charge of the country are getting defended. They had the warning and ignored it. Half of the ****ing parliament has it because they’ve insisted on still holding PMQs in a single location. 

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Probably the worst aspect of the response of western nations to this crisis has been to poo poo the use of masks. As I understand, most are made in China, and at an early stage China banned exports, which lead to a shortage in customer countries.

 

Western leaders naturally wanted remaining supplies to be reserved for medical and other front line workers, but Instead of owning to up having fvcked up on a grand scale by not having any contingency arrangements to supply these items in a crisis, they instead demonised the use of them in public by claiming that they don’t work and that anyone wearing them is panicking.

 

If they don’t work, why do doctors use them during surgery and at other times? Surgical masks are mostly to prevent doctors from infecting their patients. Isn’t that exact what we’re trying to do here, stop the spread of infection? In an ideal world, at the present time everyone would wear a mask in public. This I believe is one of the reasons that places like South Korea have handled this crisis much better than the west.

 

A massive effort should be underway to massively increase mask production.

I’ve thought about this and would suggest we were put off from using them so as not to overwhelm current stocks

[CosbehFox]

8 hours ago, murphy said:

It was actually Sir Patrick Vallance, UK's chief scientific adviser that mentioned herd immunity.  Probably speaking for the very long term but people with selective hearing blamed Boris and spread the lie that the government was prepared to let the virus run rampant and sacrifice lives as it's plan.  This was never the case.

Boris said on This Morning (of all places):- 

 

‘‘that’s where a lot of the debate has been and one of the theories is, that perhaps you could take it on the chin, take it all in one go and allow the disease, as it were, to move through the population, without taking as many draconian measures.’’ 
 

Now we can debate about context all day. But the key thing you take from that is the Prime Minister suggesting that you let a virus run through a population. 

[murphy]

10 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

It will be three months as it is. When this week ends, that will be 1 down of 12. Italy was expected to peak earlier this week and its still soaring. 
 

Clearly the NHS capacity has been bust.
 

Asking around for retired doctors/nurses, thousands of volunteers and setting up hospitals in huge conference centres. It’s a ****ing mess and I’m scratching my head to wonder how the **** these charlatans in charge of the country are getting defended. They had the warning and ignored it. Half of the ****ing parliament has it because they’ve insisted on still holding PMQs in a single location. 

Do you think that the NHS should be run with routinely with spare capacity for tens of thousands?  Or that they could magic up dozens of new hospitals since January?

 

What a bizarre rant,

[CosbehFox]

8 minutes ago, murphy said:

Do you think that the NHS should be run with routinely with spare capacity for tens of thousands?  Or that they could magic up dozens of new hospitals since January?

 

What a bizarre rant,

Edit: lost my head. That’s me done with FT for probably forever 

Edited 28 March 2020 by Cardiff_Fox

[z-layrex]

1 hour ago, brucey said:

Looks like this is opening very soon, so hopefully take a load off the London hospitals temporarily

 

 

I'm not sure it will. We are being asked to help staff it for ****s sake. We need our nurses and doctors at our hospital not there.

[urban.spaceman]

32 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Edit: lost my head. That’s me done with FT for probably forever 

Please stay!

[hackneyfox]

1 hour ago, murphy said:

Do you think that the NHS should be run with routinely with spare capacity for tens of thousands?  Or that they could magic up dozens of new hospitals since January?

If you look back in the thread there's a list of beds per capita.

We're down near the bottom.

So either other countries are unhealthier (which isn't backed up) or we've cut capacity to the bone. Talk to anyone in the NHS and they'll tell you which one it is.

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

Remuzzi says he is now hearing information about it from general practitioners. "They remember having seen very strange pneumonia, very severe, particularly in old people in December and even November," he says. "This means that the virus was circulating, at least in [the northern region of] Lombardy and before we were aware of this outbreak occurring in China."

 

Obviously it's been suspected on here, but we won't know if it's true for a while.

 

Source: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/19/817974987/every-single-individual-must-stay-home-italy-s-coronavirus-deaths-pass-china-s?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&t=1585359219444

[The whole world smiles]

2 hours ago, murphy said:

Do you think that the NHS should be run with routinely with spare capacity for tens of thousands?  Or that they could magic up dozens of new hospitals since January?

 

What a bizarre rant,

World's 5th largest economy with less hospital beds per 1,000 people than most countries in Europe. Also less intensive care beds and less ventilators.

 

No country can be truly ready for something like this to hit. But the ones who have invested in their health service in the last 10 years are more ready than ones who have made sustained cuts to health and social care.

 

This is reflected in how countries have initially handled it Hence South Korea and Germany at the top and Spain and Italy near the bottom (above us).

 

Edited 28 March 2020 by The whole world smiles

[Leicester_Loyal]

Of the first 386 deaths accredited to CV-19, 98% had underlying health conditions.

 

From the BBC.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Are we now testing at airports? If not then we're bonkers!

[spacemunky]

51 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

World's 5th largest economy with less hospital beds per 1,000 people than most countries in Europe. Also less intensive care beds and less ventilators.

 

No country can be truly ready for something like this to hit. But the ones who have invested in their health service in the last 10 years are more ready than ones who have made sustained cuts to health and social care.

 

This is reflected in how countries have initially handled it Hence South Korea and Germany at the top and Spain and Italy near the bottom (above us).

 

In your face Mexico!

[UpTheLeagueFox]

7 hours ago, Guesty said:

If they were being honest they'd probably have come out and said: We'd like to lockdown now, but we have no plan for the economy and your jobs yet; and some of you are so stupid that we know in a few days when you see people dying there will still be a load of you that will ignore our advice. If we try and lock you down now, a load of you will rebel, or be down the shops buying anything and everything and the infrastructure isn't there to cope with it. Plus, we've run the NHS and the police into the ground, we hadn't planned for this and need to get a load of staff and plans in place. So we're going to do this in steps cause if we're being honest, we're not ready - which means some will die, but we have to wait till the NHS is about to be overwelmed to really lockdown.

Great summary.

 

I'm sure with hindsight the Govt would do things differently but there's no handbook for this and all countries are different.

We can spend our time now, losing our minds by picking over the bones of the mistakes or focus on what's going to work best from now on.

 

Of course, somewhere down the line the Govt must be held to account for past errors. Not now though.

[simFox]

1 hour ago, The whole world smiles said:

World's 5th largest economy with less hospital beds per 1,000 people than most countries in Europe. Also less intensive care beds and less ventilators.

 

No country can be truly ready for something like this to hit. But the ones who have invested in their health service in the last 10 years are more ready than ones who have made sustained cuts to health and social care.

 

This is reflected in how countries have initially handled it Hence South Korea and Germany at the top and Spain and Italy near the bottom (above us).

 

It doesn't say much about distribution and Geographics though. Total beds is one thing, access to those beds is another.