England vs Argentina - Weds 15th July - 20.00 (BST)

[JonnyZeroFox]

Just now, filbertway said:

Don't disagree with that. I just think the players hold more responsibility than Tuchel.

If they as a team dont want to attack, he can bring on attackers but if they sit back then its lambs to the slaughter. 

 

Incredibly disappointing again from England, clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Look it’s the worst performance for a long long time… and Southgate never had us that deep, never 

[trabuch]

Just now, Lambert09 said:

As a fan of a club who had vardy, you of all people should know that they can’t do anything without service. If the moment had come he would have delivered and we are screwed when Kane is gone 

He spent most of that match in midfield. Indeed his one good moment was a pass out of defensive midfield.

[Tommy Fresh]

Just now, filbertway said:

Don't disagree with that. I just think the players hold more responsibility than Tuchel.

If they as a team dont want to attack, he can bring on attackers but if they sit back then its lambs to the slaughter. 

 

Incredibly disappointing again from England, clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

But if you have say a Watkins up top who at least has a yard of pace, it creates doubt in the Argentine back line about pushing up

[filbertway]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

We scored in the 55th minute. Tuchel didn't make that first sub until the 72nd minute.

 

During the intervening 17 minutes, we had already dropped deep, Argentina were dominating possession (88% Argentina possession from England taking the lead).

We were inviting pressure from the moment we went ahead - including for 17 minutes before Tuchel made any substitutions.

 

There's a separate argument to be had about the wisdom of the subs made, but these facts suggest the players had indeed bottled it - and Tuchel was reacting to that fact. It can certainly be argued that his reaction was wrong - but the problem was there long before he tried to deal with it.

I was starting to think I was imagining things but im glad at least one other person saw it this way at least haha. 

 

[chuck'em]

1 hour ago, chuck'em said:

No one is blaming this on the officials, they've been spot on. Tuchel ****ed this up going too defensive too early 

 

10 minutes ago, Miella27 said:

Gutted, we gifted it to them. Tuchel messed up big time, but are we letting the referee off the hook for that corrupt first half? Because we went in the lead, apologists will say it’s not the reason we lost, but the lack of action (twice in the first 3 mins) sets a tone and the course of the game. 
 

You would not win an appeal if 2-3 those challenges resulted in red cards on the pitch in the first 10-15 mins, yellows would have been acceptable, but to give nothing - bs!

Apologies, turns out I was wrong

[HankMarvin]

Kicked out for holding falklands  flag 👀

[Jattdogg]

1 minute ago, JonnyZeroFox said:

Look it’s the worst performance for a long long time… and Southgate never had us that deep, never 

.....What are we talking about here mate...

[filbertway]

Just now, Tommy Fresh said:

But if you have say a Watkins up top who at least has a yard of pace, it creates doubt in the Argentine back line about pushing up

Yep. I think that would be my one complaint. If youre gonna supplement the teams mindset. Have at least one pacey player who's stood on half way to at least stop their whole team being able to push up to the edge of our box.

 

Kane dropping into DM for 40 mins was horrific viewing.

[Samilktray]

1 minute ago, Tommy Fresh said:

But if you have say a Watkins up top who at least has a yard of pace, it creates doubt in the Argentine back line about pushing up

Yeah Tuchel needed to be brave enough to replace Kane in that game. He was spent 

[Kinowe Soorie]

Pathetic from Tuchel, every man and his dog could see what was coming. Trying to sit deep for all that time, absolute joker.

[whoareyaaa]

Get Howe in and that mad assistant 

[ACF]

4 minutes ago, filbertway said:

Kane said "the message was to go for another after we scored"

 

Tuchel was also annoyed about us being poor on the ball and passive after Norway. Whereas Jude was pretty chuffed we ground out a 2-1 v Norway.

 

So im inclined to think its the players mindset.

 

Especially given recent evidence of us in major tournaments as well.

 

I could be wrong but from what I saw, it looked like the players were in "do not concede" mode as soon as Argentina took the kick off after Gordon's goal.

So you’re saying the manager has no ability to respond to the players sitting back, other than to bring on another defender 15 minutes later? 

[EastAnglianFox]

Both centre backs were on a yellow card right?

 

Did they even need to make a clearance in the last 20 minutes? 
 

Truly awful management
 

 

[Tielemans63]

3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

We scored in the 55th minute. Tuchel didn't make that first sub until the 72nd minute.

 

During the intervening 17 minutes, we had already dropped deep, Argentina were dominating possession (88% Argentina possession from England taking the lead).

We were inviting pressure from the moment we went ahead - including for 17 minutes before Tuchel made any substitutions.

 

There's a separate argument to be had about the wisdom of the subs made, but these facts suggest the players had indeed bottled it - and Tuchel was reacting to that fact. It can certainly be argued that his reaction was wrong - but the problem was there long before he tried to deal with it.

An alternative view is that Argentina massively upped their game (which they did) and maybe the players could have been trusted to weather that storm. There is no doubt that the goal and their subs stung them into life. I just felt that Gordon for Konsa move looked such a poor call at the time, and so it has proven. We were still ahead, I strongly feel that wasn't the right change and it sent out all the wrong signals to the players.

 

 

[JonnyZeroFox]

4 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

.....What are we talking about here mate...

with Southgate we never sat that deep, that’s the point… never got dominated with a team having 88% when we scored..  and the teams Southgate got put out by were better 

Edited 54 minutes ago by JonnyZeroFox

[Izzy]

Give it Anthony Barry. I don't care anymore

[Kitchandro]

The Argentina players must have known the almighty abuse they would have got for losing to England.

 

England fans are currently on the radio saying how grateful we should be to be here. 
 

Sound familiar?

[STUHILL]

5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

We scored in the 55th minute. Tuchel didn't make that first sub until the 72nd minute.

 

During the intervening 17 minutes, we had already dropped deep, Argentina were dominating possession (88% Argentina possession from England taking the lead).

We were inviting pressure from the moment we went ahead - including for 17 minutes before Tuchel made any substitutions.

 

There's a separate argument to be had about the wisdom of the subs made, but these facts suggest the players had indeed bottled it - and Tuchel was reacting to that fact. It can certainly be argued that his reaction was wrong - but the problem was there long before he tried to deal with it.

That to me, just confirms that Tuchel's inaction for those 17 minutes had a negative impact on the game as well. He should have reacted faster, and with like for like attacking substitutes. Argentina were desperate for a goal, and if we kept the ball and attacked, then we could have really pushed for second goal. Tuchel saw the momentum switch and waited for 17 minutes, and then made the wrong decision as well by going ultra defensive. 

[foxfanazer]

Just now, Izzy said:

Give it Anthony Barry. I don't care anymore

Give it Barry from EastEnders 

[when_you're_smiling]

6 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said:

But if you have say a Watkins up top who at least has a yard of pace, it creates doubt in the Argentine back line about pushing up

And press from the front late on.

[JonnyZeroFox]

1 minute ago, Tielemans63 said:

An alternative view is that Argentina massively upped their game (which they did) and maybe the players could have been trusted to weather that storm. There is no doubt that the goal and their subs stung them into life. I just felt that Gordon for Konsa move looked such a poor call at the time, and so it has proven. We were still ahead, I strongly feel that wasn't the right change and it sent out all the wrong signals to the players.

 

 

Argentina upped their game fine but we ****ing dropped off and gave them confidence… the same happened against Norway.. 

[filbertway]

2 minutes ago, ACF said:

So you’re saying the manager has no ability to respond to the players sitting back, other than to bring on another defender 15 minutes later? 

I imagine he tried to get the message across during the ad break, something along the lines of "stop being massive pussies"

 

Saw they hadn't listened and then decided to get more people in try and win headers for the endless crosses we were allowing.

 

He could have done more as I said to Tommy further up. But his hands were somewhat tied in my opinion by a team that were absolutely cacking themselves

[Tielemans63]

1 minute ago, EastAnglianFox said:

Both centre backs were on a yellow card right?

 

Did they even need to make a clearance in the last 20 minutes? 
 

Truly awful management
 

 

Yep, that's why I was screaming for him to bring on Watkins to run at them.

 

I'm not going to blame Kane, but I feel when he starts playing really deep, as he did tonight, that's never a good sign for England.

 

I strongly feel that attack would have been the best form of defence here and that Watkins, Saka or Rashford should have been introduced to give us an outlet and re-establish the attacking press that went missing once Gordon was hooked. 

[JonnyZeroFox]

Can anyone trust Tuchel changes this for euro 28’ it seems even though we were 1 up… Tuchel just accepted his players bottled it… I’m sorry but no ****ing manager does that. It’s 70% Tuchel and 30% players to blame here to be fair 

[Tommy Fresh]

Bloke managed a Chelsea side rattled by Dan Amartey ffs